on these occasions, to talk of the compensation to be made to certain parties; but I say that either the thing is right,—or it is wrong. I maintain that we must either continue the system of slavery, or we must abolish it altogether. But the people are not to be taxed in either case; and I should like to know how this money, after having been wrung from the people's pockets, is to be returned to them: we always find, in every scheme of this sort, the first consideration invariably is, how much compensation is to be made?—and when compensation is named, we know it is intended that it shall be paid out of the taxes which are imposed upon an overtaxed people. The question is always raised, as to what indemnification (as it is called) shall be granted to the West India proprietors. Before long, I shall have occasion to bring before the House a case of compensation in the West Indies,-for what I say was as flagrant a robbery as ever was committed.

Mr. GODSON.-On a question of this nature I trust I may be permitted to say a few words, in reply to what has fallen from the Honourable Member for Oldham, who really does not seem to understand the plan which is proposed by the petitioner. The Honourable Gentleman complains of the taxation which will result from carrying the suggestion into effect; but the point to which I particularly directed the attention of the House was, that there would be no tax levied on the people, because the slaves themselves were to pay back the money by means of a labour rate. I did not, perhaps, state the case plainly, but the plan is simply this-that the interest of these debentures would be paid by a labour rate, which would take money from the planters; and I think it right that the slaves, by working for themselves under the protection of Government, should pay back the money advanced; and thus they would become fit for the change from a state of slavery to a state of freedom. At present, Sir, I shall say no more beyond expressing my hope that whenever other "schemes " may be brought forward, no Honourable Member will condemn them as mere matters of amusement, until they have at least read them. But as I know that at the late general election the West India proprietors were obliged to bear the brunt of the "no slavery" cry, I hope no other Member will consider these schemes as brought forward for the amusement of the House. To the West India proprietors, I can only say, the subject is one which is anything but amusing. I really think it is too much to say, that when an individual brings forward a practical plan, any Honourable Member, without making himself acquainted with the matter, should at once denounce it as a mere matter of amusement. On the contrary, I say that it will not satisfy all parties; but this is an additional cause why the House should inquire into it. It is, at least, the first attempt towards settling a long agitated and important question, and relates to the welfare of several thousands of persons in Great Britain and in the West India islands.

Mr. HARVEY.—I undoubtedly feel that every scheme having for its object the emancipation of slaves, is entitled to the serious attention of the House; but at the same time I think that the

Honourable and Learned Member who spoke last, confounds "emancipation" with "compensation." compensation." Now, these are two very distinct objects, and the condition of emancipation must not be that of compensation. The former must precede the latter; and whatever claim to compensation those who keep slaves may have, must be matter left for a totally separate consideration. But I apprehend that an objection, much more serious than that which has been urged by the Honourable Member for Oldham, exists in respect to those who have a property (as it is termed), in slaves; because the petitioner proposes that the expense incurred to obtain the emancipation of these unfortunate beings is to be liquidated in a manner which is opposed to all humanity or justice; that is to say, they are to buy out their own freedom. The owners of the slaves, as they irreligiously call themselves, will no doubt submit some similar proposition to the House; but in my opinion, if any persons are entitled to compensation, it is the slaves themselves; those very men whose lives, and feelings, and strength have been unwillingly devoted to the service of the planters.

Dr. BALDWIN.-It strikes me, Sir, that if this compensation is to be raised from the working of slaves, under the idea that they will be enabled from their altered position to subsist comfortably, and to pay up the amount of these debentures, that the plan suggested is one which must be utterly futile. Now, when we see that a great portion of the labouring classes in England and Ireland cannot obtain sufficient to support themselves by their labour,-I would ask, how can we expect that the slaves of the West Indies will be able not only to support themselves, but also to pay up these debentures? There should be another provision attached to this plan, with a view to securing the repayment, in such a case, of the money advanced; namely, that these slaves should insure their lives. Suppose, for instance, that the cholera morbus should make its appearance among these poor slaves, what then becomes of their labour,-how is the money to be repaid? On the whole, Sir, I can only arrive at this conclusion,-that it is meant to be said, that it would be an act of justice to the people of England and Ireland to tax them, in order to purchase from the West India planters a power which they have no right to possess. I say that it is an insult to humanity, and to the rights of mankind to suppose that slaves ought to be bound to purchase their freedom from those who ought never to have exercised any control over their liberty. I certainly cordially support the opinion which has been advocated by the Honourable Member for Oldham.

Mr. BERNAL.-I regret that this discussion should have arisen, on the occasion of the presentation of a petition by my Honourable Friend. With the proposed plan of Mr. Window, or of any other gentleman, I have nothing whatever to do,-nor will I here volunteer any opinions upon its merits or demerits, as I feel that I shall best discharge my duty by leaving the consideration of such a scheme to a more fitting occasion. But, Sir, I have been induced, more particularly, to rise, from the tenour of the language which

has been adopted by the Honourable Member for Colchester. I do regret that that Honourable and Learned Gentleman should so far have departed from the exercise of that sense,-of that sound, working sense which he usually displays,-as to allow himself to be tempted, at the present moment,-(before a very great and important question, affecting them, has been properly brought under the consideration of the House,)—to join in a war cry against what I will call an unfortunate body of men; I mean the body of West India proprietors. If their's be a property which, as the Honourable Member for Colchester has had the good taste to assert, is improperly or irreligiously held by them, has it been by their own fault that their property is thus constituted? Has not the property been recognized and encouraged by various successive statutes? I would ask, was it well for the Honourable Member to stir up this ill feeling at the present moment, when he must be aware, that the general subject of our West Indian colonies is one which must, ere long, undergo the important consideration of the House? Is it fitting, that the Honourable Member should thus raise this cry? Is it right that, in this Legislative Assembly, Honourable Members should address their minds to a subject of such paramount importance, by indulging in party invectives, thus thrown out to excite an unjust prejudice against a particular body of men? I ask, that on the one side, Honourable Gentlemen should discard all invective; and on the other, I promise that I, in common with others who are deeply interested in this question, will claim but common justice. I wish not to appeal to the passions of Honourable Gentlemen; but I would beg them, whenever the subject may be brought forward in a proper shape, to bring arguments, founded upon a calm and dispassionate reasoning, into the discus

sion.

MONDAY, MARCH 4.

The MARQUIS of CHANDOS said,—I take the opportunity of the presentation of this petition, to ask the Noble Lord opposite whether it is the intention of his Majesty's Government to bring forward any, and what measures, for the abolition of slavery in the colonies? A notice on this subject stood on the Book for the 19th, which, however, I understand is now withdrawn.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.-I gave an answer to a similar inquiry some time ago,-when I stated that it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to bring forward a motion upon the subject; and which, I hope and trust, will bring this question to a safe and satisfactory conclusion. Further than that, I do not think I am justified in giving the Noble Marquis an

answer.

WEDNESDAY, March 6.

Mr. FoWELL BUXTON.-I wish to correct a mistake which appears to have arisen, on a former evening, on the presentation of a petition on the subject of slavery. The Noble Lord, the Member

for Buckinghamshire, is reported to have stated that I had withdrawn my notice on the subject of slavery for the 19th. I beg to assure the Noble Lord, in his presence, that I have not withdrawn that notice, and that I have no intention of doing so-unless in the event-(not a very likely one, I fear,)—of his Majesty's Ministers declaring that they will be prepared to concede the salutary measure of emancipation. I do not hesitate to say, that no measure will be satisfactory to the Colonies, or the nation, which does not comprehend the immediate abolition of slavery. There is another consideration which presses very strongly. I mean that this measure, whatever it be, should be introduced without delay. No one, with the horrors of a colonial civil war before his eyes, can consent to delay. There is a rumour abroad that the negotiations between the Government and the West India planters have terminated. I may be deceived in this impression; but, be the case as it may, I most seriously and earnestly warn the West India planters not to lose the opportunity which is now offered them.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 6.

LORD SUFFIELD.-I have several petitions to present on the subject of slavery in the West India colonies, but in the present thin state of the House I should not feel warranted in presenting the whole of them. I will, under the circumstances, therefore, limit myself to the presentation of two only, and the observations which I shall offer on them will be very few. The first is from Wadebridge, the second from a parish in the county of Wexford : they pray for the total and immediate abolition of slavery. I have in my posession many others to the same effect from populous towns and districts in the country, but those I shall reserve till a future occasion; however, I feel it to be my duty at once to state, for the information of the House and the country, that the great object of the majority of those who have hitherto thought proper to exert themselves for the abolition of slavery, has been to leave the subject in the hands of Ministers, and to allow them full time and leisure to perfect those measures which have been stated in another place to be in course of preparation, and which are described as likely to prove satisfactory to all parties concerned. Though the preparation of those measures has been protracted for a long period of time, yet the individuals to whom I have alluded are exceedingly unwilling to embarrass the Government by raising any questions in your Lordship's House, and, in consequence, exciting the public feeling on the subject, until the measures in question have been fully matured and presented to Parliament. There is, however, a rumour afloat,-indeed, I need hardly to call it a rumour, for the fact is almost notorious,-that the measures, brought at length to a

state of maturity, have been submitted by Government to the consideration of the West India body, who have (most unadvisedly as it appears to me) thought proper to reject them. It is quite plain, therefore, that the delay in the settlement of this most important question no longer rests with his Majesty's Government, but is caused by the obstinate, and I may add, impolitic resistance on the part of the individuals connected with the West India body. Under these circumstances, I think that those persons who, out of consideration to the Government, have hitherto been induced to forbear bestirring themselves actively in furtherance of the object in view, will no longer suspend their exertions; nor do I believe that the public will be disposed to bear the disappointment of the expectations which have been raised with any degree of patience. I wish to state distinctly my conviction, that a very strong feeling does exist throughout the kingdom on the subject of negro slavery. The forbearance which has hitherto been displayed, I trust will not be mistaken for apathy and indifference to the highly important subject of the emancipation of slaves. There is, I can confidently assure your Lordships, no such apathy or indifference in the public mind, and the delay in the settlement of the question is, I repeat, solely owing to the opposition made by the West India body. I have heard it stated, with some degree of bitterness, that the AntiSlavery Society is the enemy of this body. The charge is most incorrect and unjustifiable. The Society is far from considering the West India body with vindictive feelings. Before I sit down, I will, however, offer this latter Company one word of advice, which it would be well for them to attend to. Generosity, it is well known, is as strong a characteristic of the British public, as the love of justice; but I would humbly suggest to the West India body (and I do not speak without some reason) the policy of displaying a greater spirit of conciliation. The eager desire of the public for the enactment of a measure of emancipation, is perfectly well known, and I am sure that if that desire were attempted to be checked, it would increase till it became as irresistible as the call for reform was last year. We are, at present, disposed to act liberally with the West India body; I therefore warn that body against delay, as I am quite persuaded it would result in rendering the demands upon them much more extensive, and would cause those demands to be urged with more determination than ever. I counsel them to agree at once to the terms offered by Government, while those terms may yet be yielded to with propriety. I beg to observe, in conclusion, that two days may not elapse before I may consider it my duty to call the attention of the House to the subject in a more specific way.