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EARL GREY.-As far as I am concerned, individually-or as a Member of his Majesty's Government,-I can have no objection whatever, to the production of this memorial, provided there be no objection in point of form. But I must say, that I have considerable doubt whether a paper, purporting to be a memorial addressed to me, and which has been presented to others of his Majesty's Ministersbe a public paper, or, indeed, whether it be such a paper as, according to the forms of the House, can be called for to be laid upon the Table. Much more do I doubt that it can be called for through the medium of an Address to his Majesty. That is the only difficulty I feel I admit that the memorial is very ably drawn, and that it is very deserving of attention. I have no doubt it is most respectably signed, as stated by the Noble Baron; and I believe, also, that it does convey the sense of a great portion of his Majesty's subjects on the question to which it refers. The memorial and the resolutions were presented to Mr. Stanley and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in my absence; for I was not able to attend to the interview. They were, however, of course, transmitted to me; but I must consider that they form a private, and not a public document. Having stated my view of the subject, I shall now leave it with the House to determine whether, according to the course of your Lordships' proceedings, it can or cannot be produced?

LORD ROLLE.-I beg to confirm what the Noble Baron has stated, as to meetings having been called in various parts of the kingdom, in consequence of what has lately transpired on this subject; and I call upon his Majesty's Government, as a West India proprietor, to bring forward some measure for the settlement of this question,-— and to state when it is likely to be produced? All I wish for is, that the settlement of this question should take place on such a basis as may secure the comfort and happiness of the slaves themselves, and may do justice to all parties concerned. I beg to tell his Majesty's Ministers, that my slaves are in a very disorganized state; and, therefore, I consider that the sooner the question is settled the better. I wish the slaves to enjoy every comfort that their condition may admit of; and, as a proof of that fact, let me mention, that they have cost me, ever since I came into possession of my West India property, at the death of my father, from 400l. to 500l. ayear; and their number has increased, in that period, from 129 to about 400 in number.

The EARL of ROSSLYN.-I apprehend that this is a motion which it is quite impossible for your Lordships to accede to, either as a motion for the production of papers, in the ordinary form, or by way of an Address to his Majesty. It appears to me that, on the same ground, any Noble Lord might put the question for the production of private correspondence, which might pass between any Noble Lord and any person, or body of persons, whatever; and I confess that I am very reluctant that such a precedent should be laid down. Your Lordships are well aware-we are all of us sufficiently informed-what this memorial is, it having already appeared in print. In opposing the motion, I am only anxious that I should not lend

myself to establish a precedent for calling for the production of documents which are of a private, and not of a public nature.

LORD SUFFIELD.-I believe that Noble Lords, who suppose these documents to be already in print, are greatly mistaken. I am not aware that they are printed for circulation, as imagined by the Noble Earl (Rosslyn) who has just addressed the House. Then, as to their being of a private character, I cannot understand how they can be so considered. A memorial, presented to the Secretary of State, in his official capacity, by 339 persons, in the face of day—can this be considered a private letter? Surely, if there ever was a public document, this must be one. Next, as to the danger of precedent, it is competent to Ministers to refuse any document that may, in future, be moved for, if they deem its production to be inexpedient. But supposing this to be a private letter, I can conceive no objection to its being laid upon the Table, with the consent of the Government to which it was addressed. If Noble Lords are determined to shut their eyes upon this subject, and refuse to learn what are the feelings of the people upon it, they may regret my motion; but it is clear that the objection to it is not made by my Noble Friend (if I may be permitted to call him so) at the head of his Majesty's Government; for he, with the liberality that always distinguishes his character, consents to the production of the documents.

The MARQUIS of LANSDOWNE.-I apprehend there is no objection whatever on the part of his Majesty's Government that this document should be produced, if it could be done in a regular form. But, if it is a private document, neither an Order of this House, nor any proceeding by Address to his Majesty, can make it a public one. It is true that, upon an understanding, a private letter may be produced (for of this course of proceeding there have been many instances); but then it can only be by consent of the parties to the correspondence that it can be laid upon the Table. I apprehend that to agree to an Address to his Majesty, to make an Order of the House for the production of this document, would lay a foundation for a precedent of extreme inconvenience.

LORD ELLENBOROUGH. I think it would be equally inconvenient, whether this document were produced upon an understanding or by order. I object to its production, however, on the score of the expense it would occasion, should it subsequently be thought proper to be printed. Besides, it would contain only an ex parte statement in any case; and I do protest, my Lords, against the Anti-Slavery Society putting forth their opinions by such means as these. I think that such a proposition is rather too strong.

LORD SUFFIELD.-The Noble Baron says that the document for which I have moved "is an ex parte statement" of the Anti-Slavery Society. I must express my surprise at this assertion, after I have declared that the resolutions and the memorial were the resolutions and the memorial of deputies from different parts of the empire, and were presented, as such, to the Secretary of State. He surely must have heard my statement, and if he did, I am at a loss to understand

how he can characterise these documents as the ex parte statement of the Anti-Slavery Society, only one member of which attended the conference, otherwise than as a deputy. If the House be disposed to negative my motion, I must bow to its decision, and I shall be consoled by the consciousness of having done my duty in proposing it. I shall not withdraw my motion; and must beg to have it submitted to the House from the Woolsack.

LORD ELLENBOROUGH.-I believe I must take the blame upon myself of not having paid very particular attention to what fell from the Noble Baron. But, as regards this memorial, I care not whether it be the memorial of these "delegates," or of the " Anti-Slavery Society." It is evident, from the speech of the Noble Baron, that it must contain an ex parte statement; and what proof is there that this memorial may not have originated with the Anti-Slavery Society themselves, who may have distributed copies of it over the country, and that thus it may have been adopted by the delegates, and have come into the hands of the Noble Earl, as the Noble Baron describes, in the face of day? I object to the production of this document, on the ground of the expense which would be incurred in printing it; because, in common justice, we may be called upon, if we sanction the printing of an ex parte statement, also to print the counter-statement of other parties.

EARL GREY.-The question before the House is, whether the document shall be produced or not? As regards the printing of it, should the house determine that it ought to be laid on the Table, that must be the subject of a separate motion. All I can say is, that I have no objection to the production of this document, provided it can be brought before your Lordships consistently with the forms and usage of the House, and without establishing a precedent that would lead to inconvenience.

LORD ELLENBOROUGH.-The motion of the Noble Baron, if acceded to, might certainly go to shew what was the opinion of a large majority of the people of this country; but then, if we adopt such a principle by our assent to the motion, we must go much further; and, in instances where it may be considered necessary, in consequence of the precedent thus laid down, to bring the cases of contending parties before the public, we must print the statements of both sides, or else we shall be inflicting considerable hardship on one of them.

The question was then put, and negatived without a division.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 24.

LORD VISCOUNT EBRINGTON having presented petitions from Torrington and other places in Devonshire, said,-The prayer of all these petitions is for the immediate abolition of slavery; and the petitioners represent that they are ready to bear their share, in a pecuniary way, of any provision to be made with a view to compensation to the West India planters. In presenting these petitions which come from a great body of the constituency which I have the honour to represent, I beg to bear my testimony to the interest and anxiety with which they, in common with the country at large, look forward to the measure that is about to be proposed to Parliament by his Majesty's Ministers for the settlement of this great question. I do hope, that while the people of the country express their readiness to bear their share in those pecuniary sacrifices which it may be necessary to make to the planters, the planters, on the other hand, will not attempt-by any unreasonable proceeding to retard the success of a measure which is so important to the best interests of humanity, and, I will add, of Christianity, as well as (I believe) to the security of our colonial possessions.

Mr. COBBETT.-I heard the Noble Lord almost express an opinion that the people of England might very properly be called upon to pay something for compensation to the West India planters. Sir, I hold it to be an act of the greatest injustice to call upon the . people of this country to pay money for such a purpose, under any circumstances, and particularly under the present circumstances, when it is, after all, a very questionable thing whether the measure which is in contemplation will do good to any of the parties interested. I believe, that if the plan contemplated-and by which we are to establish an interference between the planters and their slaves-is really carried into effect, the result will be one of two things; either our colonies will be alienated, or they will be utterly destroyed. This is a subject which is not to be talked lightly of; and I think that the House ought not to act upon the dictates ofcertainly a very good set of people-who no doubt mean well, but who know nothing of the matter they are petitioning about. The House ought seriously to reflect, before they step in between the masters and the slaves, upon the step they are about to take; but if they do interfere, let the grounds upon which they proceed be so far just, that the people of England shall not be called upon to pay anything for the measures they decide upon. I have pledged myself to vote for the emancipation of the slaves, and I have also pledged myself to take care that the people of this country be not taxed upon their account, to the amount of one farthing. I hope that the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will not entertain the project of compensation. The Noble Lord, who has just spoken, does not know, perhaps, that the slaves have already cost this country 5,000,000l. or 6,000,000l. of money. Look to the expense which the settlement of Sierra Leone has entailed upon the people;—

I say we ought not to proceed hastily upon the suggestion of these petitions. I call no man's motives in question; but I say that every man ought to understand the matter before he decides upon its merits, and that the West India planters ought to be heard with great patience. I entertain the highest respect for the Noble Lord opposite; but I really could not refrain from alluding to that particular passage in his remarks, which went to justify the imposition of a tax upon the people of this country.

COLONEL TORRENS.-The Honourable Member for Oldham appears to forget that the people of this country are absolutely taxed to keep up slavery; for it happens, that, in order to promote the consumption of slave-worked sugar, we keep out of the market the cheaper sugars of the Brazils. Were it not for the duties which are levied on Brazil sugars, it is quite clear that the trade and commerce of the country would be most materially benefited by their introduction; whereas, now the commerce and the people of England are compelled to pay, in the shape of duties, a very heavy duty, in order to encourage the growth of sugar in our colonies in the West Indies.

Mr. BERNAL.-I am always sorry when Honourable Members give way to their feelings upon a matter which it is of paramount importance to discuss, with calmness, and without prejudice; and when they suffer their judgments to be misled by giving countenance to erroneous statements. I am sorry that my Honourable and Gallant Friend should venture to assert such a doctrine as that the people of England are taxed, in order to support slavery. I beg to ask my Honourable and Gallant Friend, whether, if we import the sugars of the Brazils, we import the produce of slave labour or not? I have, on all occasions, both in and out of the House, stated that I, for one, should not be opposed to the introduction of East India sugar, provided due justice were done to the other colonies. I trust that my Honourable and Gallant Friend will endeavour to inform himself more correctly upon this subject,-that he will judge more from facts, and that he will not listen to, or, at least, not suffer his opinion to be biassed by, the interested assertions of parties out of the House.

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Mr. W. EVANS.--The Honourable Member for Oldham has cast a very strong imputation upon the supporters of the views of Government, with regard to this subject; but it is my full and firm conviction, that not one of his observations are well founded.

LORD VISCOUNT EBRINGTON.-Much as I abhor slavery, and anxiously desirous as I am to witness its immediate abolition, still, considering the vast amount of the property at stake in our West India Colonies, property which has grown up under the sanction of the Legislature, I am decidedly of opinion that it would be unjust to take that property from the holder, without fair compensation.

The petitions were then ordered to lie on the Table.

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