argued by the noble marquis, the consolidation of some of the public offices of revenue. Upon this subject he would freely give his opinion, that he thought the plan impracticable, from the large inThe next point army extraordinaries, and he must remind the House of regulations made in the pay-office, both by Mr. Burke and colonel Barré which had produced much salutary reform in that department. The next point was the mysterious manner of negociating loans, and the lottery had been mentioned as one bad part of them. It ought, however, to be known, that this was the first administration that could say the lottery formed no part of these loans. It was next said, that the unfunded debt ought to be ascertained, and that a clause in an act of parliament required it. Formerly, the navy and ordnance unfunded debt was suffered to lay over: but since that act they had always been laid before parliament within the year. The noble marquis had then pointed out many abuses in consequence of the principles in patent offices in the customs having neglected to appoint deputies. With regard to patent offices, they were held by a legal tenure, and could not be taken from the holder without compensation. Such of them as were to be abolished would be abolished as they became vacant. On the principal points, therefore, of the noble marquis's charge, one of them was impracticable; and the others were already effected. The principal object of attention which ministers had taken up, was certainly the most essential one, namely, the speedy auditing of public accounts; the best check against fraud, and which the present ministers had more credit for attending to, than any who had gone before them.The noble marquis had stated the increase of naval expenditure in a war that had not been the most prosperous. Where had the naval war been unsuccessful? Had it not been attended throughout with the most brilliant success?

crease of the revenue. was the

The French at this moment could not put out a single frigate, that would not be brought in triumph to our ports. When the noble lord mentioned crown lands, he really had doubted where he was, or what he heard, when it was affirmed that no steps had been taken on that point, after so much had been so ably done by the person to whose management it had been entrusted. As to

new grants, none had been made, nor could any be issued by law. Excepting, then, the consolidation of the revenue boards, and the arrangement respecting a new coinage, recommended in the reports, all the other objects had occupied the attention of parliament, and had already undergone a decision.-With regard to barracks, as an innovation, he would only state from the papers on the table, that by the old system there were barracks for 20,000 men, in time of peace, and by the new for 15,000 only. He wished the noble marquis had not said that it seemed to be the system of the present reign to pay all its attention to the army, he wished he had called it the system of the present government; and there was no system on which they had more reason to pride themselves. It was curious to hear objections made to men of high rank and fortune being in the army. It was the pride and glory of the times to step forward in a cause in which the happiness and safety of all ranks in society were so materially involved. The object of the army was not to check the liberties of the country, but to support a just, honourable, and necessary war. With regard to the minister having it in his power to desire the bank to advance any sum he wanted, no such thing existed. As to the finances of the country being in a deplorable state, whenever a discussion on that subject took place, he trusted he should be able to exhibit a picture directly the reverse of that which the noble marquis had drawn.

Lord Auckland said:-My lords; I came to the House this day, disposed and not unprepared to enter at large into the discussion of the expenses of the present war, and of the debts, revenues, and resources of the kingdom. I certainly was not singular in supposing that the mass of papers collected upon your table was meant for such a discussion. The noble marquis, however, has thought proper to confine himself, for the present, to observations respecting the reduction of certain offices, the mode of paying the army, the simplifying of loans, the abolition of patent places in the customs, the new barracks, the appointment of a transport board, and a present of money supposed to have been made to the dey of Algiers. I would not intentionally undervalue propositions coming from so high a quarter, and liable in their nature to be considered as fit objects for the attention of parlia

.ment. But surely, my lords, when the points alluded to are compared with the extensive interests and expectations of the day, I may be permitted, with all due respect to the noble mover, to borrow an expression of his own, and to say, that he has called upon us "to make a great account of small matters." Be this how-raging to our enemies. I feel it a sacred ever as it may, I do not mean to enter into any of the particulars in question. Whether they are matters of charge, or of inquiry, and whatever may be their intrinsic value and importance, they have already been forcibly and fully answered by the noble lord who spoke second in the debate.

derive additional satisfaction from recol- | in all wars our exports increase to counlecting that it has arisen notwithstanding the pressure resulting from an addition of at least 110 millions, which have been funded since the first period, for discharging the out-standing debts of the last war, and for providing for the expenses of the present war.

I am led by the subject last mentioned I now come to a general comparative to state, in the next place, the nett reve- statement of our Finances at the respecnues of the East India Company above tive periods in question, beginning with the charges. Having been the chairman the amount of the permanent taxes: of the committee appointed to inquire" Amount of permanent taxes on a three into the affairs of the East India Company year's average to 5th January 1784, in 1784, I may be allowed to say, with 9,876,000l. Amount of the same taxes, some degree of confidence, that at that after making allowances, as far as they period the Company possessed no nett can be calculated, for the intermediate revenue above the charges; on the con- changes and arrangements of the revenue, trary, that the charges exceeded the reve- by taxes imposed in 1784, 1785, 1786, nue. At present, by a system of ac- and 1789, as well as for the profit gained counts annually laid before parliament, by the consolidation of the customs and the accurate statement of which is fully excise duties, on a three year's average to established by the experience of several the 5th of January 1796, 12,381,000l.” years; "the nett revenues of the different Exhibiting, amidst the failure of resettlements of the East India Company sources, and the disastrous circumstances amounted in 1795 to about 2.600,000l. ascribed to us by the motion on the table, The amount of sales for East India an increase of nearly one-fourth in the Company's goods for 1783, was 3,363,800l. actual produce of the identical taxes of Ditto for 1795, 6,191,894/.” 1783, to many of which the weight of new imposts has since been added.

The next object is the amount of the unfunded debt. "Navy debt outstanding and unprovided in December 1783, 15,510,7671. Navy debt outstanding and unprovided on 2nd May 1796, only 2,500,000l.," being little more than the floating navy debt in 1791, a period of acknowledged prosperity and profound peace. I would not be understood here to conceal that there existed in last December a navy debt to the amount of near 11,000,000l, which was not funded; but, for a large proportion of it, taxes had even then been provided. The recent discharge of a part of that debt for the purpose of facilitating public credit, is at once a proof of our resources, and of the wisdom and energy which have distinguished parliament in all the exigencies of the present war.

I must now, my lords, request your attention to the prosperous statements of our navigation, which I have to lay before you. Total number of British ships which entered inwards at the ports of Great Britain, or cleared outwards. Inwards. 1783, vessels, 7,690; tons, 812,960.-1795, vessels, 10,174; tons, 1,262,568. Outwards. Outwards. 1783, vessels, 7,729; tons, 870,270.- 1795, vessels, 10,133; tons, 1,164,910." Though the increase in the number of British ships is here so large, yet it would have been still larger, if the circumstances of the war had not required a considerable proportion of merchant ships to be employed in the transport service, and compelled us, to a certain extent, to make a temporary use of foreign bottoms. The progressive increase of our mercantile shipping, may be more clearly shown by the accounts which have been kept under the Register act, best known by the name of the noble lord who introduced it. As that act was not in full effect till the year 1789, I cannot extend the comparison to an earlier period. But here let it be remarked, that in 1789 we were indisputably in a state of high prosperity and of peace; and yet since that period, if we extend our views to the whole of the British empire, we shall find that our increase, both in shipping and tonnage, has been in the proportion of about sixteen to fourteen. "To tal number of vessels belonging to the British empire, 1789: vessels, 14,310; tons, 1,395,074; men 108,962.-1794: vessels, 16,802; tons, 1,589,162; men,tures for which have been annually pay119,194." ing off, and will this year be discharged [3 Y

[VOL. XXXII.]

The next account which I shall mention to your lordships will be that of the Bank advances, in order to show that the idea of our being aided by extraordinary anticipations is without foundation:

"Bank advances, April 5th, 1783, 11,279,000l. Ditto, May 2nd, 1796, 11,132,000l.; of which last sum provision has actually been made for funding 5,030,000l." A farther striking contrast of public circumstances in the periods compared will be seen in the following statement: "Amount of outstanding demands, and floating and unfund.. ed debt in January 1784 (exclusive of two millions to American sufferers, the deben

within 80,000l.) 27,000,000l." I have no sum to place in opposition to this. Estimating the debts actually outstanding, and throwing into the opposite scale the whole supplies for which taxes are already found, I may state that certainly there is no outstanding balance of debt unprovided for at this day; such and so efficient have been the measures adopted and pursued for preventing an accumulation of unfounded debt! If, indeed, the estimate were extended to January 1797, the conjecture would be utterly uncertain. The result must depend upon the extent of the navy debt, and of the extraordinaries of the army to be incurred in the course of the present year; and it is possible that the outstanding debt might then amount to six or seven millions.

its growing produce), over and above all charges, applicable to such services as our position on the return of peace may make expedient.

With respect to the sinking fund, your lordships will recollect that the annual million, set apart in 1786, is to be inviolably applied to the reduction of the debt, till the accumulation, with other accessions and expiring annuities, shall amount to 4,000,000l. a year, from which period there will revert annually to the disposal of parliament, taxes equal to the interest of whatever part of the national debt may be repurchased by the application of four millions a year. Your lordships are farther aware that the other branch of the sinking fund was established in 1792; in consequence of which, an addition of one per cent. of the capital is now provided, for the gradual discharge of every new debt created. In other words, a most salutary system has been introduced, by which the increase of revenue is required to be greater than the charge of interest to be paid for new loans; and that increase at the rate of the loans made in the present war has amounted to about one-sixth of the whole charge. Thus it is that 750,000l. a year of the taxes voted in this war are applicable not to the expense of the war, but to the reduction of the new debt incurred; which will discharge the whole of that new debt (estimating the rate of money at four per cent.) within a period of fortyone years, when a farther disposable income of 4,500,000l. a year will revert to the public. About nineteen millions of capital are now redeemed by the operation of the sinking fund set apart in 1786. Six millions more will be redeemed in about three years, and the five per cents will then be redeemable. The reduction already made is more than three times as great as the whole reduction that was effected in the period of peace between 1763 and 1775. It is an important result of this system, that the whole of the perpetual annuities are in effect converted into annuities for terms of years, varying as to the course of redemption from fifty four to thirty-nine years; and it is found in the progress of this operation, that the daily and increasing payments for the capital redeemed, have the most In a beneficial effects in money transactions and upon public credit.

Adverting to the sinking fund, I have nothing to state under that head in 1783. There did not then exist the means of a sinking fund. On the contrary, there was a deficiency of revenue, to the amount of at least 2,000,000l., below the peace establishment, supposing it to have amounted to fifteen millions. Very different is the statement for the 2nd May, 1796. At this day the sinking fund is above 2,400,000l. (without taking credit for 200,000l. annually voted in addition.) And I am prepared to show, whenever a proper occasion may arise, that, exclusive of so large a sinking fund, which is hourly augmenting itself, there is, by the actual established taxes, even under the absurd supposition that they will not be more productive in peace than they are in war, such a balance of revenue as, together with the aid to be expected from the East India participation and the lottery, will furnish one million annually, beyond the peace establishment above stated of 15,000,000l. over and above the interest for the additional debt incurred by the present war. If it should be objected that the future peace establish ment would necessarily exceed the supposed amount; still the suplus which I have stated would be applicable to it, in the whole or in part, without any interruption to the progress making in the discharge of the debt. I am aware that such a necessity may arise; but on the other hand the favourable contingencies of peace may be expected to give a proportionable increase of revenue.

word, my lords, if my computation is accurate, there will remain a surplus of 1,000,000l. (beyond the sinking fund and

I abstain from entering into the consideration of the expenses occasioned by this t