HOUSE OF LORDS.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 1834.

THE Usher of the Black Rod (Sir Augustus Clifford) announced a message from the House of Commons.

The Messengers were ordered to be called in, when Mr. S. Rice and others appeared at the Bar, and having handed a written paper to the LORD CHANCELLOR, withdrew.

The LORD CHANCELLOR.-The message brought by Mr. S. Rice and others from the Commons is this-that the Commons desire a conference with your Lordships, on matters of great importance, concerning the stability of the empire, and the peace, security, and happiness of all classes of his Majesty's subjects.

The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the question, and the conference having been agreed to, the Commons were again called in.

The LORD CHANCELLOR.-I am commanded by their Lordships to acquaint the House of Commons, that their Lordships have agreed to the conference, and will meet the Commons presently in the Painted Chamber.

On the motion of the DUKE of RICHMOND, the following Peers were named managers on the part of the House of Lords:-The Marquess of Lansdowne (Lord President), the Duke of Wellington, the Archbishop of Cashel, the Earl of Winchilsea, Earl Grey, the Earl of Charlemont, and the Marquess Conyngham.

The Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod then announced, that the managers for the Commons were ready to meet their Lordships in the Painted Chamber.

The managers on the part of the House of Lords immediately retired: on their return

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said,-I have to acquaint the House that your Lordships' managers have met those of the Commons, and have received from them the following Address to his Majesty, to which they desire your Lordships' concurrence. [The Noble Marquess then read the Address, which has already appeared in the proceedings of the House of Commons.]

EARL GREY said, he rose to propose that their Lordships should at once agree to the Address which had been communicated to them by the other House of Parliament. In thus proceeding, he might be allowed to observe, it had not been unusual in particular cases, and under particular circumstances, to act with the least possible delay; and he believed that a case of greater or more urgent importance than one involving the consideration of the continuance of the Union with Ireland—or, in other words, involving a question affecting not merely

the prosperity and power, but the peace, the integrity, and the safety of the empire [Hear, hear]—could not be conceived. [Hear, hear.] But great, however, and important as the question was, and urgent as were the motives for coming to a prompt decision on that question, he certainly should not, even though sanctioned by precedent, venture to propose to their Lordships an immediate concur- Y rence in this Address, without allowing further opportunity for consideration, if he had not felt, after the subject had been so long before the public-after the agitation to which it had given rise (the evil. connected with which must have pressed closely on their Lordships' attention)—after six days' debate in the House of Commons, when the question was discussed through all its several bearings—he should still not have pressed their Lordships' immediate acquiescence in the address, had he not felt that, under the circumstances which he had described, he need entertain no doubt whatever of receiving the decided, the unanimous, the wholly undivided support of their Lordships. [Hear, hear.] He had said, and he repeated, that this was a question which, in his opinion, affected the peace, the safety, and the integrity of the British empire; for if they looked at what had been done of late years-if they considered the principles on which the agitation of this question had proceeded-if they marked the views that had been taken of it—if they examined the results that had been effected, and those which were intended to be produced, by the system of agitation--who could believe, contemplating all these things, that if the same evil spirit which had produced this agitation remained in the full exercise of its influence and its power, that it would not finally, if its career were successful, lead to consequences dangerous to the monarchy-who could suppose that it would not more particularly introduce into that part of the United Kingdom which was peculiarly connected with this question such confusion, misery, such ruin, as could not easily be described? [Hear, hear.] Strong as his feeling on this subject was, and many as were the proofs and arguments which he could bring forward in support of that feeling, still he thought, after the discussion which the question had undergone, that he could throw no new light upon it, and therefore it would be but to trespass upon their Lordships' time if he took up any great portion of it by proving the truth of that sentiment, with respect to the correctness of which he believed they all felt a firm conviction. Connected as these two great countries were -connected as were these two great branches of the united empire by the legislative Union-the severance of that Union would refer not merely to the Government, but to the people of both countries-the dissevering of the link which could only be destroyed by the agency of the people themselves-the dissolving of all those ties which now connected the two countries. Suppose this to be effected, what would be the consequence? It would be to expose both kingdoms, thus weakened, to the attacks of foreign enemies; it would be to introduce internally a state of things that must lead to the ruin and misery of both countries, but which would more especially be felt by that part of the United Kingdom which it was sought to delude by specious declarations on this question. [Hear, hear!]

He could, if it were necessary, go into a very large field of argument and detail on this most important subject; but he did not think

that he was called on to express more than these general opinions, which were perfectly in accordance with the Address, and to which, as he had already said, he anticipated their Lordships' unanimous sanction. [Hear, hear.] The address which had been brought up from the other House stated the whole of the question in the clearest manner. In the first place, it declared to their Lordships the absolute necessity of determining to support the legislative Union which at present existed between the two countries. It next stated, what he had already endeavoured to state, the necessity of preserving that Union, as essential to the strength and stability of the empire. It then stated, most emphatically, that the two countries had benefited by the measure, but Ireland especially so. On this point it was in his power to show, by irrefragable argument, how false and unfounded was the assertion that the interests of Ireland had been neglected-how untrue were those assertions by which the people of Ireland had been led to believe that from the Union they had derived nothing but misery-that it had been to them productive of no good whatsoever. The very contrary was the fact. To prove this, let Noble Lords examine the state of the commerce and manufactures of that country; let them turn their eyes to these points, and they would find, that in spite of all the mischiefs of agitation in that country, still improvement had been rapidly going on. [Hear, hear.] Let them look to these things, and then put their hands on their hearts and say whether they believed, or did not believe, that the situation of Ireland was materially and substantially improved by the adoption of that measure of Union which they had now been called on to dissolve. [Hear, hear.] He deeply lamented those impediments which had been thrown in the way of the more beneficial progress of that great measure; he lamented the moral danger which menaced the Government from the continuance of those efforts which had been made to perpetuate agitation; and he felt that they were bound, by every motive of conscience and duty, by the first law of nature, that of self-preservation, by a true regard for the interest of Ireland, by the solemn duty which they owed their country, to support the integrity of the Crown of these realms, and to use their best and most strenuous efforts to put down every scheme that was likely to compromise it [Hear, hear,] and to repel and resist that spirit of insubordination and violence which had been so unfortunately excited in Ireland. [Hear, hear.] That spirit must and should be put down by the strong arm of the law. [Hear, hear.] If it were not repressed, the ruin of the country must be the inevitable consequence. [Hear, hear.] He trusted therefore, that their Lordships, having this important object in view, would agree to the Address, which was entirely in accordance with that pledge which they had already given at the commencement of the Session, to put an end to that system of intimidation which had worked so much evil, and which would work much more, if it were not put an end to. [Hear, hear.] Acting in the spirit of that declaration, adhering to that determination, he then pledged his Majesty's Government to use the powers with which they were intrusted for the interest of the united empire, and more especially for the benefit of that deluded people, to mislead whom the strongest endeavours had been made-endeavours which, if successful to the intended extent, would lead to the inevitable ruin of the empire. [Hear, hear.]

It

Perhaps it was scarcely worth while for him to enter, on this occasion, into a charge which had been made against himself, as if he were doing something wrong because he now supported the continuance of the legislative Union between the two countries, having been one of those who, at the time when the measure was proposed, gave his opposition to it. He did so, and he conscientiously did so. [Hear, hear.] At that time he acted almost alone in the House of Commons, for Mr. Fox did not then attend in the House. But how stood the case now? He was called on to state his opinion, after the existence of this Union for four-and-thirty years, [Hear, hear.]—after it had become an essential link between the two countries, [Hear, hear.]-after it had become a measure necessary to be preserved, if they respected the safety of the empire. [Hear, hear.] The severance of that link would, he felt a deep conviction of the fact, tend to the destruction of the empire. [Hear, hear.] Was it, then, improper in him, under those circumstances, either with reference to consistency or to duty, to stand forward for the purpose of preventing that Union from being broken up which had lasted for so many years? was a thing, perhaps, which at the time should not have been done; but which, having been done, they would by undoing hazard the undoing of the country. [Hear, hear.] It was an ancient maxim in law "quod fieri non debet factum valet." He would say, that though great objections existed to the accomplishment of the Union, yet a much greater evil would now result from dissolving it [Hear, hear.]; and it was upon this principle that he resisted the repeal of the Union. [Hear, hear.] Although looking back to the circumstances of the time when the Union was proposed, and the feelings which then actuated him, he was not certain that he would not take the same course again, if similarly situated; yet, adverting to the whole of the question, considering what had passed since, and observing the manner in which the Union had benefited Ireland, he thought that he was formerly mistaken. [Hear, hear.] He trusted, therefore, that no imputation, no reproach, would rest on him for having changed his opinion, when he saw good reason for changing that opinion on any great public question. [Hear, hear.] He had vindicated others who had so acted, and in his own case he had a right fearlessly to do the same. [Hear.] He repeated distinctly, that under present circumstances, he felt himself bound to support that expression of determination so strongly and properly set forth in the Address sent up from the House of Commons. It embraced, first, the determination to resist the proposed breach of the Union; it stated the advantage which the Union had been to both countries, but more particularly to Ireland; and it pointed out, which was the last and the most valuable part of the Address, that with the determination to support the Union, there existed an anxious desire to pay the utmost attention to the interests of the people of Ireland, which was, undoubtedly, one of the first duties of the Legislature. [Hear, hear.] That care and attention had not been paid to the people of Ireland—that their interests had not been consulted, was an assertion the most false and unfounded that ever was made. That attention which had hitherto been paid to the interests of the people of Ireland would still be continued; and, as was expressed in the Address, the Legislature, which had already passed many laws, with a view to the advantage and

improvement of Ireland, would still persevere in pursuing that course -they would still bring forward and perfect those remedial measures which would finally remove all cause of just complaint. [Hear, hear.] He stated this more particularly, in consequence of what had fallen from the Noble Baron [Teynham] on the cross-bench. He was glad to find that the Noble Baron was not one of those who would support the repeal of the Union; but the Noble Baron threw out an insinuation, if he did not make an assertion, that hitherto the interests of Ireland were not fairly attended to. Now he [Earl Grey] defied any person to prove that such was, or had been the fact during a period of several years. He knew that much had been done for Ireland he also knew that much remained to be done for that country, and Parliament was anxiously engaged in taking the necessary measures for that purpose. No Noble Lord was more anxious to proceed in that course than he was-no man was more anxious, in the spirit of good faith and justice, to maintain and secure that Union, on the preservation of which he believed the prosperity of both countries depended; no man felt a more conscientious desire to keep whole and unbroken that link, which he believed could only be severed at the expense of the ruin of the two countries. [Hear, hear.]

He had now briefly stated his view of the subject; he had also stated the object of the Address, and he did not feel it necessary, on an occasion where he expected no opposition, to trespass further on their Lordships' time. He should, therefore, conclude, with all the sincerity and warmth of feeling which the occasion called for, by moving an Address which pledged that House to assist his Majesty in his efforts to maintain the integrity of the empire, by maintaining the Legislative Union-to convince the deluded people of Ireland that the course which they had been engaged in for some time past could only lead, as it had led, to nothing but evil, and that their interest would be best promoted by obedience to the law, and by a due respect for the constituted authorities. That these sentiments would ultimately prevail he felt confident, from the vote of last night: that vote, as appeared from the paper on their Lordships' Table, had been carried by a majority almost unparalleled in the annals of Parliament. [Hear, hear.] He felt this more particularly, when he looked at the number of Irish Members who appeared on the division. The Irish Members, including the teller, amounted to thirty-nine who voted for the original motion, while, on the other hand, fifty-nine voted against it. That the Irish Members, themselves, notwithstanding all the arts which had been employed-notwithstanding the intimidation that had been resorted to at the last election-that the Irish Members, themselves, thus pressed, had exhibited a considerable majority in favour of this Address, was a most gratifying circumstance. This proved that there was not a general feeling against the Union throughout Ireland-it showed that the wealth, the intelligence, the real influence of Ireland, were decidedly in favour of supporting a measure which was necessary to the connexion of the two countries. [Hear, hear.] With that conviction, and with an increased confidence in the success of those measures which had been introduced to support the authority of the law, and the just power of the Government-with a deep conviction that the efforts of the