Admiral MASON. We have not considered that. That, of course, has never been definitely decided on.

I would be glad to submit this whole statement and let it go into the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

(The statement referred to by Admiral Mason follows:)

Ordnance and ordnance stores....

$5, 364, 715. 79 For procuring, producing, preserving, and handling ordnance material; for the armament of ships, for fuel, material, and labor to be used in the general work of the Ordnance Department; for watchmen at magazines, powder factories, and powder depots; for furniture in ordnance buildings at navy-yards and stations; for maintenance of the proving ground and powder factory; for target practice; and for pay of chemists, clerical, drafting, inspection, and messenger service in navy-yards, naval stations, and naval magazines: Provided, That the sum to be paid out of this appropriation under the direction of the Secretary of the Navy for chemists, clerical, drafting, inspection, watchmen, and messenger service in navy-yards, naval stations, and naval magazines for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and ten, shall not exceed three hundred and sixty-four thousand seven hundred and fifteen dollars and seventy-nine cents.

A statement of expenditures for each of the principal separate items during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1908, from the regular annual appropriations of the bureau, as called for by the second paragraph of the department's circular letter No. 26634, of July 1, 1908, will be furnished as a supplement to the bureau's estimates when received from the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts. This procedure was authorized by the department's indorsement, Nos. 26634 and 26639, of August 31, 1908. The Bureau of Supplies and Accounts states that it will endeavor to have the information desired available by about October 31, 1908."

The appropriations under this head for the last four years have been as follows:

1905-6.. 1906-7. 1907-8.

1908-9.

$3, 000, 000, 00

3, 500, 000. 00 4, 000, 000. 00 4,500,000.00

The estimate for the coming fiscal year shows an increase over the current fiscal year of $500,000 for the general purposes covered by the appropriation and $364,715.79 for pay of chemists, clerical, drafting, inspection, and messenger service in navy-yards, naval stations, and naval magazines.

The increase of $500,000 has been made under the assumption that there will be in commission during the year 39 first-rate vessels, 57 second and third rate, 12 fourth rate, and 74 torpedo vessels, making a total of 182 vessels.

The addition of $364,715.79 for pay of chemists, clerical, drafting, inspection, and messenger service in navy-yards, naval stations, and naval magazines was made by the direction of the Secretary of the Navy, and contemplates the elimination of all estimates under "Civil establishment," and also the discontinuance of the practice of paying for such services out of the various lump-sum appropriations. It also contemplates the limitation by action of Congress of the amount available during the year 1910 for such services. The estimate for target practice is $1,855,150; for supplies and equipage for vessels, $794,319, and $2,350,531 is intended to be used

in the general work of the Ordnance Department, which included all work at navy-yards, magazines, and the proving ground, all material and labor necessary for the care and preservation of ordnance materials on shore and afloat, labor, pay of watchmen, fuel, tools, and a great variety of miscellaneous items not otherwise provided for. "Supplies for new vessels" heretofore included in the appropriation Ammunition and other supplies for ships" has now been eliminated from that appropriation and included in the appropriation "Ordnance and ordnance stores," and ammunition is estimated for as a separate item.

This is the general working appropriation of the bureau, and the expenses under it necessarily increase with every ship added to the navy. The amount asked for is believed to be the minimum consistent with efficiency and safety.

Attention is invited to the words added to the description under this appropriation as follows, the purpose of which is explained above:

For pay of chemists, clerical, drafting, inspection, and messenger service in navyyards, naval stations, and naval magazines: Provided, That the sum to be paid out of this appropriation under the direction of the Secretary of the Navy for chemists, clerical, drafting, inspection, watchmen, and messenger service in navy-yards, naval stations, naval magazines, for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and ten, shall not exceed three hundred and sixty-four thousand seven hundred and fifteen dollars and seventy-nine cents.

Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. As I understand the Admiral, he said that this appropriation of $364,000 was simply for the pay of the clerical force and did not increase the appropriation practically.

Admiral MASON. The $364,000 has heretofore been paid out of the lump appropriations; partly out of this appropriation and partly out of the appropriation "Increase of the navy, armor and armament." A great deal of it is paid out of the appropriation "Increase of the navy, armor and armament."

Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. Then the $364,000 is practically an increase above the $4,500,000 that is appropriated for the civil force?

Admiral MASON. We have been spending that money each year. We have been paying it out of "Increase of the navy, armor and armament," and in some cases out of "Ordnance and ordnance stores." Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. You have been paying practically $364,000 out of that appropriation for those very same wages?

Admiral MASON. Yes, sir.

Mr. PADGETT. Do you reduce that appropriation by an equivalent amount?

Admiral MASON. "Armor and armament" will be reduced by that amount as we use it. The appropriation "Armor and armament" is a continuous appropriation. We can not estimate very closely for it, but when the time comes the amount spent under that appropriation will be decreased by the amount we have heretofore paid for this clerical force.

Mr. BUTLER. Have you decreased it in the estimates this year? Admiral MASON. No, sir. We can not come closer than three or four hundred thousand dollars for "Armor and armament," because it is a continuous appropriation. Contracts are made for supplying material to be delivered one and two years from now, and so it is almost impossible to make a close estimate.

Mr. BUTLER. You have two services-you have the military and the civil services in your department. The civil establishment connected with your bureau receives from the Government every year so much money?

Admiral MASON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUTLER. Can you tell us how much?

Admiral MASON. Yes, sir; I have a statement right here. I can amend even the notes I have here to state just exactly how much of this $364,000 has been paid heretofore out of the appropriation "Ordnance and ordnance stores" and how much out of "Armor and armament."

Mr. BUTLER. Will the $364,000 cover all the expenses for employees in the civil establishment for the next year?

Admiral MASON. It must if the bill passes, because there is a provision that says that the Secretary can not go beyond that.

Mr. BUTLER. That will pay all the civil employees in your bureauI mean employees wherever they may be?

Admiral MASON. Yes, sir; all at navy-yards, naval stations, and magazines, but not those in the bureau at the Navy Department. They are paid under the legislative bill.

Mr. BUTLER. All of the civil employees under your bureau will be paid under this item of appropriation?

Admiral MASON. Yes, sir; except the clerks in the Navy Department, Bureau of Ordnance.

Mr. ROBERTS. In the fourth line of the paragraph on page 28 it says: "For watchmen at magazines, powder factories, and powder depots." Then farther down in the words italicized, it says, "for chemists, clerical, drafting, inspection, and messenger service," but does not mention those watchmen. Should not the word "watchmen" be inserted there?

Admiral MASON. Yes.

Mr. ROBERTS. The intention is that the $364,000 shall pay for your watchmen and the labor and everything else?

Admiral MASON. Not for the labor.

Mr. ROBERTS. For the watchmen?

Admiral MASON. They are not laborers; they are the same as inspect

ors.

Mr. ROBERTS. Civil employees?

Admiral MASON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. The word "watchmen" should be put in there?
Admiral MASON. That would be the better way.

Mr. ROBERTS. You need the authority to hire the watchmen ?
Admiral MASON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Can not we strike out the language, "for furniture in ordnance buildings at navy-yards and stations?"

Admiral MASON. No, sir; I would not strike out any of that language, because this appropriation is the working appropriation of the Bureau of Ordnance.

The CHAIRMAN. We are going to put all the furniture in one item in the Navy Department.

Admiral MASON. I would like to have it stay in, at least qualified so that we can buy furniture at the magazines, torpedo stations, and proving grounds, which are under the Bureau of Ordnance alone.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that the Secretary of the Navy is trying to eliminate all the items for furniture and put them under one head under the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts.

Mr. HOBSON. This would not be at the navy-yards. The magazines are located at isolated points.

The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would talk that over with the Secretary of the Navy. We want to carry out any reforms that will confine the bureaus simply to their own work.

Admiral MASON. Prior to the revision of this hearing I have talked this matter over with the Secretary of the Navy, and he informs me that the words "for furniture, etc.,' can remain in this working appropriation of the Bureau of Ordnance, provided it is qualified by the words "at naval magazines, torpedo stations, and proving ground," the words "navy-yards and naval stations" to be struck

out.

The CHAIRMAN. We have taken advertising out of the bureaus. Just take that matter up with the department and also with Paymaster-General Rogers.

Admiral MASON. I am under the impression that "Yards and Docks" were the ones that had charge of furniture.

Mr. PADGETT. Admiral, I notice here in the limitation of this lump-sum appropriation which may be used for the payment of salaries in the civil establishment is $364,715. Last year the total of the civil establishment was $47,256, making an apparent increase of $317,459. I presume that some of that was covered by what you paid out of your lump-sum appropriation to your per diem employees? Admiral MASON. Yes, sir.

Mr. PADGETT. How much did you pay to the per diem employees last year?

Admiral MASON. As I said, I have a statement here that I would like to incorporate in my remarks which gives all of that. The appropriation under civil establishment for the last year was $47,256. What we expended under the lump appropriations, mainly "Increase of the navy, armor, and armament" and "Ordnance and ordnance stores,' with one or two exceptions, and they did not amount to more than two or three hundred dollars, amounted to the sum of $247,380.90. That was divided up into subinspectors, clerical force, chemists, draftsmen, watchmen, and people of that sort. The civil establishment had $39,000.75; lump appropriations $247,380.90; inspections, $45,172.16, making $331,559.81 expended last year. Adding to that promotions, the 10 per cent increase which has been made, $33,155.98, makes a total of $364,715.79.

Mr. PADGETT. Is it contemplated under the change which you are making to increase the number of employes in the civil establishment over and above what it is now under that designation?

Admiral MASON. No, sir. As I understand, the Secretary does not intend to increase the expense in any way.

Mr. PADGETT. I was speaking of the number of employees. Is it the intention to increase the number of employees?

Admiral MASON. The Secretary's intention, as I understand, is simply not to spend any more money for this service than this amount. Mr. PADGETT. I understand that, because he could not do it under the limitation?

Admiral MASON. But in case he should find it necessary or find it practicable to reduce some of the higher paid employees he would make use of the money, if necessary, to increase the number of the lower class. I think that is his idea. The amount expended is not to be increased, but it is to make the whole system expansive. For instance, at one station the work might die out or slack up, and if we have a complete clerical force authorized by law we have to keep on paying the clerks and let them sit around, whereas under this act the Secretary can say, "those clerks are laid off, or discharged, or transferred; they will be put somewhere else," and the $364,000 is not exceeded.

(The following statement was submitted by Admiral Mason:)

Statement showing amounts paid at various navy-yards and stations for chemists, clerical, drafting, inspection, and messenger service, covered by the $364,715.79 added by direction of the Secretary of the Navy to the appropriation "Ordnance and ordnance stores," in place of the special appropriation for “Civil establishment" and such places as have heretofore been paid out of lump appropriations.

Subinspectors and clerks at private works on roll of New York Navy-Yard.. $8, 263. 20

This statement was prepared from conditions actually existing at the date of its preparation in September, allowing 10 per cent for prospective increases by the Secretary of the Navy, making the total amount as stated, $364,715.79. The actual increases made by the Secretary ing this total to $379,558.55, and the estimate under "Ordnance and ordnance stores" should be increased accordingly.