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Admiral PILLSBURY. I do not know what the President may have done.

Mr. LOUD. Rumors have been mentioned in the newspapers; I did not know whether it was so or not.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have marines been in the navy?
Admiral PiLLSBURY. Ever since there was a navy.

You know when fighting large ships began, the fighters were all soldiers and the ship was commanded by a general; but by and by they arrived at the conclusion that the people who worked the ship—that is, the sailors--could do the fighting just as well as the men of the army could do it, so that the change was made, and they kept then only a guard of marines for the purpose of holding these riotous sailor men in subjection. Now the riotous sailor men have gone, and the sailor man is as quiet and intelligent and peaceful as any marine that ever existed.

Mr. ROBERTS. Is not that due largely to the fact that we do not have any conscription and impressment of the men? Was not that the chief field of usefulness of the marines, when they pressed men, to club them into subjection?

Admiral PILLSBURY. I do not know but what it was. The sailor man before the civil war was a pretty riotous individual, especially when he was coming back from liberty.

Mr. OLCOTT. Is it not a fact that the marines do not exist anywhere on board ship except in England ?

Admiral PillsBURY. That is true.
Mr. OLCOTT. The other navies have all abolished them?
Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes, sir; they have all abolished them.

Mr. ROBERTS. Is it the design to have a body of marines accompany a fleet on a transport, or something like that?

Admiral PILLSBURY. Or to be ready to do so.
Mr. ROBERTS. To be ready?

Admiral Pillsbury. For instance, on a station I should say there should be enough marines in one body to fill a vessel of the Prairie class; that would be about 900. She has a crew of about 150 or 160 men. She can take 900 men. If there was trouble in the West Indies we would take this body of men and carry them to Haiti or to the Isthmus or anywhere else where they were wanted.

Mr. ROBERTS. Are there enough transports in the navy to carry these men where they are needed, or will we have to build transports?

Admiral PILLSBURY. No, sir.
Mr. ROBERTS. We have enough now?

Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes, sir; we have the Buffalo on the Pacific coast, the Rainbow in Asiatic waters, and the Prairie and the Dirie on this side.

Mr. ROBERTS. We have not much use of the Yankee.
Admiral PillSBURY. She is still in being.
Mr. ROBERTS. She is in 42 feet of water.
Admiral PillsBURY. They will get her up, all right.

, Mr. ROBERTS. I do not think you finished your answer as to why you needed that $1,500,000 more for the pay roll.

Admiral PillsBURY. Well, sir, you know they gave last year 10 per cent additional pay for all the enlisted force. You see, that is one great item. Then, we have got the pay of the nurses in addition.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is $58,000.

Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. Does that 10 per cent additional come out of last year's appropriation?

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Admiral PilLSBURY. The act authorizing the increase was passed May 13, 1908, and the department submitted a deficiency estimate for the eighteen days in May and the thirty days in June to provide for the additional amount made necessary by the increase.

Mr. CALLAHAN. Then this estimate for 1910 provides for increased commutation for officers, heat, and light, etc., and furthermore increased longevity and higher rank of officers, which makes up for the difference.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you asking for a deficiency this year!

Mr. CALLAHAN. There is a balance of about $3,000,000, so far, in the Treasury from the appropriation for 1908. The accounts under "Pay of the navy are frequently not finally adjusted for two or more years after the fiscal year for which the appropriation is made is ended.

Mr. ROBERTS. Have you figured out the items of that increase of $1,500,000?

Mr. CALLAHAN. Only so far as they are given in this list on page 9 of the bill.

Mr. PADGETT. Admiral, will you state approximately what the increase amounts to, authorized last year?

Admiral PILLSBURY. The increase of men?
Mr. PADGETT. No, the increased pay of the navy.

Admiral PILLSBURY. There was 10 per cent additional for the enlisted men and increased pay for the officers.

Mr. PADGETT. That was an increase of pay of officers and also of pay of men ?

Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes.

Mr. PadGETT. Can you state approximately what the total of that would be?

Admiral PILLSBURY. It was 10 per cent for the men, and placed the officers' pay on the same basis as the army pay.

Mr. PADGETT. How much does it aggregate?
Admiral PILLSBURY. I have not the figures here.
Mr. PADGETT. Could you submit that to the committee?

Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes, sir. Congress last year gave us 3,000 men to be immediately available and 3,000 more to be available at the beginning of the fiscal year.

Mr. PADGETT. Then we increased the pay of the men and also the pay of the officers?

Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes, sir.

Mr. PADGETT. I would like to have you submit, if you can, a statement of how much that amounts to.

Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes, sir; the following table will show approximately the difference in amounts which the officers and enlisted men estimated for in 1910 would receive as between the new and the

old pay:

OFFICERS AND MIDSHIPMEN.

New pay.

old pay.

Difference.

Officers on active list...
Midshipmen under instruction.
Officers on retired list..

Total..

$9, 222, 443 $6,912,750

540,000 450,000 2, 493, 801 2,235, 907

$2,309, 693

90,000 257,894 2,657,587

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Mr. Hobson. What is this item, “Pay of 3,250 officers on the active list now allowed by law," on page 9?

Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. I suppose that is the number in service.

Admiral PILLSBURY. That is the actual number of officers on the active list.

Mr. PADGETT. We have that many officers ?
Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes; that includes all the warrant officers.
Mr. PadGETT. It does ?

Admiral PILLSBURY. That includes commissioned warrant officers and midshipmen.

The Chairman. Are there any further questions on this paragraph?

Mr. ROBERTS. Do I understand that you are going to give us in detail the items of this increase of $1,500,000?

Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes, sir. Statement showing causes of increase of estimates for Pay of the navy,'' 1910, over amount

appropriated for 1909. The appropriation for “Pay of the navy” for the fiscal year 1909 was $30,974,225 while the estimate for the fiscal year 1910 is $32,375,707, an increase over the appropria tion for the current year of $1,401,482. This increase is due to the difference between the amount necessary for the pay of officers for the fiscal year 1909 ($8,510,241) and that required for the pay of officers for the fiscal year 1910 (estimated at $9,222,443). The cause of this apparently large increase is due to the addition of 121 line officers in 1910 over the number for 1909, higher pay by reason of greater rank and longevity in the Staff Corps, and also by an addition of $240,963 for increased longevity for warrant officers. In preparing the estimates for 1909 the enlisted service of warrant officers, through a misapprehension, was not taken into consideration as it should have been in computing higher pay due them for increased longevity: This sum of $240,963 was accordingly included in the estimates for the next fiscal year.

In the estimates for 1910 a lesser number of mates, to the number of 35, are estimated for than in 1909.

The following table will plainly indicate the necessity of increasing the sum for pay of officers in 1910 over that of 1909: Pay of 3,164 officers (estimated for in 1909) figured on basis of new rate of pay, including 10 per cent for sea service..

$8,510, 241 Pay of 121 line oflicers (estimated for in 1910) above number allowed in 1909...

$257, 100 Increase by reason of higher rank and increased longevity in Staff Corps...

245, 934 Increased longevity for warrant officers (error in estimate of 1909) 240,963

743, 997

9, 254, 238

Deduction by reason of 35 officers (mates) less being estimated for in 1910

than in 1909...

37, 875

Total required for pay of 3,250 officers (1910)...

9, 216, 363 The result of this calculation, which is entirely independent of the one made in August last when the estimates were prepared, indicates that $6,080 less may be required for the pay of officers in 1910 than is estimated for, but beyond this slight difference, which could probably be accounted for if time permitted the examination of the pay of each individual officer, it will serve to give the committee the information desired.

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Mr. Hobson. Would you include in your statement the numbers of each of these classes-commissioned officers, warrant officers, and petty officers ?

Admiral PILLSBURY. You will find this information given in detail in Appendix T, pages 656, 657, 658, and 659 of the Book of Estimates.

The CHAIRMAN. Now we pass to "Pay, miscellaneous," on page 11. We have “For actual traveling expenses of female nurses.” That is a new item.

Mr. CALLAHAN. That comes under the Secretary's office.

The CHAIRMAN. That is due to the establishment of that corps, I suppose. Then we have on page 12 “all advertising for the Navy Department and its bureaus (except advertising for recruits for the Bureau of Navigation).” Why do you except that?

Admiral PILLSBURY. That is a special kind of advertising. There is nothing like it anywhere that I know of, anywhere in the United States. It is something that has been worked up, and I think it ought to be in the hands of the bureau. We get up the plan of these advertisements and we visé, of course, all illustrations and have them made. I do not think anyone else could handle it except the Bureau of Navigation, as it alone knows the needs.

The CHAIRMAN. As it is now you propose to put in one item, as I understand, all the advertising of all the different items of the different departments of the navy? Admiral Pillsbury. That is something for the Secretary to say.

. . He controls those matters.

The CHAIRMAN. He makes the exception?

Admiral PillsBURY. Yes; for the advertising for recruiting. Last year the advertising for the recruiting of the navy amounted to $35,000. That is what we are asking for this year.

The CHAIRMAN. How much of this is for the Bureau of Navigation?
Admiral PILLSBURY. All of it.
The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-five thousand dollars?
Admiral PILLSBURY. Thirty-five thousand dollars.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the total amount of the advertising for the whole Navy Department, do you know?

Admiral PILLSBURY. No, sir; I could not tell that. You see the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts has a large part of the advertising in bids and contracts.

The CHAIRMAN. The Paymaster-General could tell us that?

Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes, I have no doubt he could. This is something that has always been under the Bureau of Navigation; that is, everything with respect to the recruiting of the enlisted force.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, there is a proviso on the bottom of page 12, as follows:

Provided, That the sum to be paid out of this appropriation, under the direction of the Secretary of the Navy, for clerical, inspection, and messenger service in navyyards, naval stations, and purchasing pay offices for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and ten, shall not exceed one hundred and seventy-two thousand and twenty dollars: Provided further, That hereafter the rates of pay of the clerical, draiting, inspection, and messenger force at navy-yards and naval stations shall be paid from lump appropriations and shall be fixed by the Secretary of the Navy on a per annum or per diem basis as he may elect; that the number may increased or decreased at his option, and shall be distributed at the various navyyards and naval stations by the Secretary of the Navy to meet the needs of the naval service, and that all such employees shall be allowed leave with pay in accordance with the provisions of section seven of the act approved March fiiteenth, eighteen

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hundred and ninety-eight; that the total amount expended annually for pay for such clerical, drafting, and messenger force shall not exceed the amounts specifically allowed by Congress under the several lump appropriations; that section fifteen hundred and forty-five, Revised Statutes, is hereby repealed; in all, eight hundred and twenty-one thousand seven hundred and fifty dollars.

Admiral PILLSBURY. That is for the Paymaster-General. That does not affect the clerical force under the Bureau of Navigation except at such places as the War College and the naval training stations.

Mr. Roberts. That does away with this illegal manner of paying out of the lump-sum appropriation for the ships for such employees?

Admiral Pillsbury. Mr. Curtis, the chief clerk of the department, will explain that, I think, or the Secretary will do so.

Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. That allowance of leave with pay is in addition to what they get now?

Mr. ROBERTS. No; they get that now, under the law—that fifteen days' leave with pay.

The CHAIRMAN. We will pass now to page 15, which comes more properly under your bureau, the Bureau of Navigation. The first is

Transportation: For travel allowance of enlisted men discharged on account of expiration of enlistment," and so forth. The language is the same as that of last year, but the appropriation asked for is $786,800.

Admiral PILLSBURY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. An increase of over $300,000 on last year.

Admiral PillsBURY. I would like to explain that. The appropriation bill of 1908 was for $400,000. This afterwards was increased by a deficiency appropriation of $135,000. In the course of the year it became apparent that there would be a further deficiency for that year of $110,000, making the total sum expended for transportation in 1908, $645,000 in all. Then later figures that have come in under this same appropriation, that is, the appropriation of 1908, indicate that a still further deficiency existed in the appropriation, so that this appropriation for 1910, based upon the expenditures for 1908, should be $818,000.

Mr. ROBERTS. Was not that due to the fact of the fleet cruising around the world, and it costing more to transport the men?

Admiral PILLSBURY. This did not cause a large increase in expenditures for transportation.

Mr. ROBERTS. And if the fleet does not continue its cruise

Admiral PILLSBURY. It was not so much for that, because the fleet all started out with an excess of about 50 men on board each ship. Then, with but few exceptions, all the men we have sent to the other side have been sent by way of Panama in a government vessel, the Prairie, and upon the other side in the Buffalo, with no cost except the coal, which came out of another appropriation; so that the only transportation for which any money was paid was for simply going across the Isthmus.

The CHAIRMAN. Why is there necessity for this increase? Heretofore we have gotten along.

Admiral PILLSBURY. We have increased the number of men 6,000 since that time—since last year.

The CHAIRMAN. But that would not make all that increase; that is nearly double. You say it really requires $800,000 and over for the coming year, but you only put in here $786,000.

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