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the cost thereof, and all the figures that make up this total of $458,346, which is in "Provisions, navy," and which is the limit of the sum which can be paid for clerical hire in the next fiscal year. That includes all increases and all new clerks. And please remember, it continues increases already made. Another general increase is not contemplated.

The CHAIRMAN. How much to-day are you paying them in your own bureau?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Three hundred and eighty-two thousand seven hundred and twenty-three dollars and sixty-four cents, at all yards and stations, before the recent increase.

The CHAIRMAN. That is an increase of how much?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. The increase is 10 per cent on that sum, namely, $38,272.36. To continue that increase next fiscal year we need that amount. The chemists, which you notice are left out, are to come under this general provision. The chemist at New York now receives $2,500 and it is proposed to increase his salary to $2,750; the chemist at Mare Island, receiving $2,000, is to be increased to $2,200; the chemist at Norfolk, receiving $2,000, is to be increased to $2,100, and the chemist at Boston, receiving $1,577.52, his salary is to be increased to $2,100. He is paid a per diem of $5.04. That seems to be a large raise, but it is almost impossible to avoid it. Then there are additional clerks provided for to the amount $28,200. All of this foots up the sum that is mentioned in the provision as the limit which can be paid.

The CHAIRMAN. This does not apply, of course, to any clerks around Washington?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. In the navy-yard; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In the Washington Navy-Yard?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Yes, sir. The Washington NavyYard is on the same status as any other navy-yard.

The CHAIRMAN. It does not include any clerks in the Navy Department?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is fixed by another bill?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Yes, sir; the legislative bill. Remember, sir, that that sum of $458,346 under " Provisions, Navy," includes the $93,000 for clerks which has heretofore been included in civil establishment, about $10,000 of civil establishment being for labor. Mr. PADGETT How many clerks does this proposed arrangement add to the existing civil establishment list?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Thirty-two.

Mr. PADGETT. How much does it increase the pay of the total civil establishment list?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. $28,200 at their annual pay, the highest being $1,500.

Mr. PADGETT. How much does it propose to increase those who are now employed?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. $38,272.36, 10 per cent on the total amount paid them this year. Please do not forget that the increases have been made. These provisions I am pleading for continue in 1910 existing conditions.

Mr. PADGETT. That makes a total increase of how much?

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Paymaster-General ROGERS. $38,272.36, and then there are the chemists where the increase amounts to $1,033, which is included in the $456,346, but not in the $38,272.36.

Mr. ROBERTS. Has there ever been any practice in your department of charging up salaries of employees to the cost of material in any way?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. It has been done specifically, but not generally, and is a debatable question as to whether it should be done.

Mr. ROBERTS. If this becomes law that practice will cease?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. I misunderstood your question. I thought you meant charging salaries to cost of work, as in the case of building the Connecticut.

Mr. ROBERTS. In the Navy Department?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. That is a mere matter of accounting. Mr. ROBERTS. While it might be, the net result has been that we in Congress have never known how much was spent in the Navy Department for clerk hire. If this becomes law that will stop and just so much money can be spent for clerical assistance?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Undoubtedly. Just exactly what I mention here. [Exhibiting statement.] I have a statement showing the offices of the storekeepers and yardmasters and subsidiary offices, in which it is proposed to pay the clerks from Provisions, Navy; also the appropriations from which their salaries are paid at present. I have here, for instance, 426 employees. Three hundred and twentyone are paid from Provisions, navy; 87, Civil Establishment, Supplies and Accounts; prorated between various appropriations, 10; prorated between Increase of the Navy, Construction and Machinery, and Armor and Armament, 4, and Increase of the Navy, Equipment, and Increase of Navy, Armor and Armament, 4. I would ask that this statement be inserted here as part of my hearing.

Statement showing, by yards and stations, the number of clerks, messengers, etc., in the offices of the storekeepers and yard paymasters which it is proposed to pay from "Provisions, navy;" also the appropriations from which their salaries are paid at present.

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a Prorated between Increase, navy, construction and machinery," and "Armor and armament."

"Increase, navy," "Armor and armament."

Statement showing, by yards and stations, the number of clerks, etc.-Continued.

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Mr. BUTLER. What is the authority for that? Paymaster-General ROGERS. Congress has allowed a amount. for instance, under Increase of Navy, Armor and Armament, and Construction and Machinery, to be paid for clerical hire, draftsmen, etc., for work in the bureaus. These, of course, are employed under that distinct authorization.

Mr. ROBERTS. Was there not a statute that prohibited that?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. No, sir. If there was any statute it would not be done.

Mr. ROBERTS. The auditor brought that up about two years ago and claimed that for twenty years the department had been proceeding illegally in the case of many civil employees.

Paymaster-General ROGERS. The question that the auditor brought up was that the special laborers had not distinctly done labor, but other things. It was provided for from year to year in the lump appropriations.

Mr. ROBERTS. Heretofore, when we have appropriated money for the construction of a ship or for any other purpose that involved clerical assistance in carrying out the act of Congress, we never knew how much of that appropriation went into the specific object, the building of the ship or the armament of the ship, and how much went into clerical assistance. There was no way we could tell. The department charged them up to different appropriations.

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Only within the limit of the particular appropriation, I think.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is what I mean.

Paymaster-General ROGERS. There has been a general provision which forbids the exceeding of a certain sum, under "Increase of navy," in the employment of clerks and draftsmen in the bureaus.

Mr. ROBERTS. Take, for instance, in your appropriations, "Provisions, navy." Up to the present time there has been no limitation. as to how much you could pay for clerical services?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. None, as I stated a little while ago. Mr. ROBERTS. That same thing has gone through every bureau of the navy?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Not wholly.

Mr. ROBERTS. The only limit would be the total appropriation. It was possible, although, of course, highly improbable, to spend every dollar of that appropriation?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Not under "Increase of the navy.” Mr. ROBERTS. But the other appropriations?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. And there was no way to find out how much the department was spending for clerical hire?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. It is specifically stated in every one of these appropriations how much money can be spent for clerks. That money will be reported to Congress every year, so that Congress will in the future have the full information.

The CHAIRMAN. On page 13 there is this limitation: "Shall not exceed $172,020." Is that your bureau?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. That is for Pay, miscellaneous, which I estimate and account for.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that under the Bureau of Navigation?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. No, sir; that is under the Secretary's

office.

The CHAIRMAN. Where are those men employed?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. They are employed in the pay offices and are clerks of labor boards and clerks to courts-martial at the few yards where there are permanent courts-martial.

Mr. ROBERTS. As stenographers?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. Yes, sir; only two or three of these, and as stenographers.

Mr. BUTLER. Have you anything further to say as to the purpose of this provision?

Paymaster-General ROGERS. The purpose of that provision is to limit the amount that can be used under the appropriation "Pay miscellaneous," for clerical hire throughout the fiscal year 1910, and a similar limitation exists in every lump-sum appropriation in the Navy Department.

As I have already stated, "Pay, miscellaneous," includes clerks in the navy pay offices, clerks to labor boards, clerks to boards, and courts-martial. There are not very many outside of the pay offices who are paid from "Pay, miscellaneous." It is proposed to bring under "Pay, miscellaneous," the present employees paid under that appropriation, 72; it is proposed to bring under that appropriation the clerks paid from "Equipment of vessels," 2; prorated between various appropriations, 42; "Increase of navy, construction and machinery," 3; "Civil establishment, equipment," 1; "Civil Establishment, yards and docks," mainly clerks to commandants, 16; "Increase of the Navy, Armor and Armament," 1; "Maintenance, Yards and Docks," 2; divided equally between "Construction and Machinery and "Armor and Armament," 1; "Naval Training Station, Great Lakes," 3, and instead of having those all divided up in these appropriations, to put them under one single appropriation, and I have here the sums which will be necessary to debit the other appropriations.

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The following appropriations have heretofore paid a portion of the salaries of certain clerks in the offices of the commandants and other offices, labor boards, etc., which are now estimated for under either "Pay, miscellaneous," or "Pro

visions, navy." Estimates under these appropriations for 1910 may be reduced

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Civil establishment, salaries and allowances (no estimate submitted) 92,826. 06 Medical department--

Naval training station, Great Lakes.

158. 59 2. 740.00

168, 891. 35

Of this amount, $117,831.60 has been absorbed by "Provisions, navy,” and the balance by "Pay, miscellaneous."

Provisions, navy..

Pay, miscellaneous..

$117, 831. 60 51,059. 75

168, 891. 35

Statement showing, by yards and stations, the number of clerks, messengers, etc., in the offices of the commandants, labor boards, etc., which it is proposed to pay from "Pay, miscellaneous;" also the appropriations from which their salaries are paid at present.

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Mr. BUTLER. What is the advantage in lumping them? Paymaster-General ROGERS. The advantage is to make them very much clearer to understand. If this plan is carried out, " Pay, miscellaneous; " "Construction and repair;" "Steam machinery;" "Equipment of vessels; " "Maintenance, yards and docks; ""Örd

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