Secretary NEWBERRY. To comply with the executive order as to their future duty. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Then they will be assigned according to the directions of the executive order of which you have spoken? Secretary NEWBERRY. They will. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you intend to supplement this force on the ship with sailors? Secretary NEWBERRY. To take their places? The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Yes. Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Can you give me the make-up of this force that is intended to take the place of the marines withdrawn from the ships? Secretary NEWBERRY. I can. Do you want it for each ship, or the total? The ACTING CHAIRMAN. For each ship. I do not think you quite understood my question. I will admit that it was not very lucid. What sort of an organization do you intend to make to take the place of the marines formerly-shall I read from this? Secretary NEWBERRY. I think it is right there. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. So it is. I simply wanted to get it into your statement. Secretary NEWBERRY. For the ships mentioned here, there would be 3 masters at arms, first-class; 3 masters at arms, second-class; 22 seamen; 30 ordinary seamen; and 2 buglers. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Sixty men in all, Mr. Secretary? Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes, sir. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. About the number of marines on these ships? Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes, sir. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You did not ask for any additional sailors this year? Secretary NEWBERRY. NO. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. To take the place of the marines withdrawn from the ships? Secretary NEWBERRY. NO. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You did not ask for any increase at all in the sailors this year, as I recollect? Secretary NEWBERRY. If you say "the Navy Department," or my predecessor, I will answer, no. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. When I use the pronoun I refer to the department. The department did not? Secretary NEWBERRY. No, sir. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Would it be necessary in the future to supply permanently the places of these marines with sailors? Secretary NEWBERRY. The navy would be required to increase its personnel in accordance with the increase of the number of vessels in commission. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What I am getting at is this: If you take 2,700 marines off of the ships you will have to supply their places with 2,700 sailors, will you not? Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes, sir. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You will have to? The ACTING CHAIRMAN. But you did not ask for them this year? Secretary NEWBERRY. No, sir. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Am I right in the assumption that the places of these marines will have to be supplied by sailormen? Secretary NEWBERRY. In the future? The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Yes. Secretary NEWBERRY. With the present enlisted force of the navy we are able to supply their places without increasing them at all. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Is it the purpose to place in reserve some of the ships that return? Secretary NEWBERRY. It is. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You will be able to supply those places, then, from those ships? Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes, sir; they will be placed in reserve for the purpose of repair. I think it would be more illuminating if I said that some of the ships are to undergo long periods of repair and will be laid up for that purpose. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I want to ask you a general question, and I would like to have you answer it in your own way: What was the reason for this executive order detaching these men from the ships? Mr. HOBSON. Before you leave that point The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I withdraw that question at this time. Mr. HOBSON. I do not think that any part of our examination ought to furnish an argument for something that is not intended. We are not to infer from your answer that we have more enlisted men in the navy than we need? Secretary NEWBERRY. We have not. We have not enough. Mr. HOBSON. That is what I wanted to cover; that we do not provide for more vessels in commission, ordinarily, than is advisable. Secretary NEWBERRY. The limitation on our vessels in commission is determined mainly, in my opinion-I may be wrong-by the lack of officers in the higher grades qualified by age and experience to command and to officer the ships at present. Mr. HOBSON. I will put it in this way. The basis for the application for an increase in the enlisted force of the navy that was made last year did not contemplate more ships normally in commission than was wise? Secretary NEWBERRY. It did not. Mr. HOBSON. And in the future the proportionate number of ships in commission ought not to be less than in the past, normally? Secretary NEWBERRY. It should not be any less, I should think. Mr. HOBSON. That is all, sir. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Now, will the stenographer repeat my question to the Secretary, please? (The stenographer read as follows:) I want to ask you a general question, and I would like to have you answer it in your own way: What was the reason for this executive order detaching these men from the ships? Secretary NEWBERRY. You mean, how was it brought about? The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What was the history of it, if you please, Mr. Secretary, in your own way? Secretary NEWBERRY. My knowledge of the matter is rather limited, and is confined to an opportunity to read the recommendations of the Bureau of Navigation when they were presented to the Secretary of the Navy. Admiral Pillsbury gave them to me, as a matter of courtesy, to read, and I expressed to him my idea that it would be a good thing. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. That the detachment would be a good thing? Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes; for the reasons stated, which I would prefer to read into the record, if you want my reasons for thinking that it was good. I concurred in his views. Would you like me to read it? The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Yes, if you please. Secretary NEWBERRY. A letter dated October 16, addressed to the Secretary of the Navy by the Chief of the Bureau of Navigation (and this is all I saw), is as follows: DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY, SIR: The bureau is of the opinion that the time has arrived when all marine detachments should be removed from United States naval vessels, substituting blue jackets in their stead. The marines thus removed should be organized into regiments, battalions, and companies, and should be embarked, or ready to embark, in a suitable vessel, and should be attached to the fleets, thus forming part of the fighting force of the fleets directly under the control of the commander in chief. Attention is invited to the fact that both blue jackets and marines are recruited with the same degree of care and from the same class of people. If anything, it may be said that the degree of intelligence, superiority of intellect, etc., is in favor of the blue jacket, for a large number of ratings in the navy are filled by skilled laborers. Under these circumstances it is apparent that one possesses no virtue or military qualification that is not possessed by the other. The blue jackets of to-day are self-respecting, reliable, and trustworthy, and it is believed that no reason at the present time exists for having men from two separate, distinct corps wearing different uniforms in the organization of a ship. Under the Navy Regulations the marine detachment is a distinct part of the complement of a ship and forms a division in the detail of the whole force for battle. They are drilled at and man a certain number of the guns, but if called upon at any time to land as an expeditionary force they abandon the guns aboard ship and break up the organization, leaving a certain number of guns without crews. While under the regulations the Bureau of Navigation fixes the complements of vessels in commission, the removal of marine guards involves a change of policy, and the bureau therefore recommends that authority be granted to change the complements of all ships on board of which marines are now stationed, substituting for them an equal number of blue jackets as soon as the latter may be enlisted in sufficient numbers to make this substitution. On July 1 last there were 2,022 on board ships of the fleet; this does not include receiving ships and prison ships. Should the bureau's recommendation meet the department's approval, it is proposed that the marines shall be withdrawn from the ships of the fleet gradually. The bureau is prepared at the present time to relieve the detachments of eight ships, and by the 1st of next July it is probable that they could be relieved from all cruising ships. Very respectfully, The SECRETARY OF THE NAVY. J. E. PILLSBURY, The ACTING CHAIRMAN. How long has the Marine CorpsSecretary NEWBERRY. May I finish my answer? That is part of what you asked me, as I understood the question. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Certainly. Proceed. Secretary NEWBERRY. You asked me a question, and I said that my connection was somewhat limited, and an opportunity was given me to read this paper, which appeared to me to be reasonable. I was not called on either to approve or to disapprove it. I told Admiral Pillsbury that I thought it was reasonable, and I talked with General Elliott considerably on the same subject in the course of the last two years; with the Chief of the Bureau of Navigation, who was well qualified to judge of what the complement of a battle ship ought to be. My next connection with it in any way was when the President signed the executive order. I first saw it when he signed it, purely accidentally. I was not called on to approve or to disapprove it or to recommend it, or anything. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I understand. Secretary NEWBERRY. It will be helpful, perhaps, for the committee to know what I think Mr. HOBSON. Speak freely, Mr. Secretary. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Čertainly; we want to know. Secretary NEWBERRY. My belief is that my predecessor went over the matter very carefully with the President. I know of no correspondence on the subject. There was no correspondence whatever that I know of in connection with the matter. That is all I can say in relation to that question. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. As I understand, the Marine Corps has always served with the Navy. Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. And was established by an act of Congress passed more than a century ago. Do you know whether during all that time they have been detached from their ships as an organization or as a corps? Secretary NEWBERRY. I do not. I would rather have you ask the General here as to that. General ELLIOTT. They were removed once, and placed back again. Secretary NEWBERRY. I do not know of my own knowledge. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I thought perhaps you would know from the history of the corps. Secretary NEWBERRY. I do not know. I would say that the General informs me they were detached for a short time and then put back. Mr. HOBSON. Is it your idea that we should ask someone else about the history of the corps, Mr. Secretary? Secretary NEWBERRY. I think it would be more illuminating to those who want to be well posted. Rear-Admiral PILLSBURY. I can add to that information now by saying that there have been for a long time approximately 50 of the smaller ships without marines. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I see that one of the reasons assigned for taking these men from the ships is because they belong to another organization than the sailor man belongs to-another military organization. Secretary NEWBERRY. Another form of organization; yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Still, the Marine Corps is a part of the Navy, is it not, Mr. Secretary? Secretary NEWBERRY. If I could say it without being facetious, I would say that I would refer the question to the Attorney-General. I think it has been decided both ways. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Well, I do not know what he would say, and I do not know what I would say; but I ask you the question. You still issue the orders for the Marine Corps, do you not? Secretary NEWBERRY. Some of them, yes; on general matters. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. In general, do they pass through your department? Secretary NEWBERRY. On general matters. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Therefore the Marine Corps is still a part of the navy? Secretary NEWBERRY. It is; and I hope it always will remain a part of the navy. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You hope it always will remain a part of the navy. Is there any desire to lose it? Secretary NEWBERRY. Not by any man that I ever heard talk about it. Mr. HOBSON. If you are going to pass that subject, I want to ask a question, The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I would be very glad to have you do so. Mr. HOBSON. Mr. Secretary, if you could suppose a condition where, practically, it would either be necessary for the navy to have marines aboard ship, as a principle, or lose them altogether, what would be your judgment as to the wisdom of their Secretary NEWBERRY. What do you mean? Do you mean to lose them as a part of the navy? do? Mr. HOBSON. If you were going to lose them from the navy or put them back aboard ship, one or the other, what would you Secretary NEWBERRY. I never contemplated such a possibility. I would rather put them aboard ship. I never dreamed of losing them altogether. Mr. TALBOTT. Mr. Secretary, what duties would the Marine Corps have to perform if they would not be a part of the make-up of a manof-war? You assign so many to these war vessels, do you not? Secretary NEWBERRY. Do you mean at present, or in the future? Mr. TALBOTT. At present. If you are going to have blue jackets for marines on all war vessels, what is left for the Marine Corps to do? Secretary NEWBERRY. The duties provided in the executive order. Mr. TALBOTT. Yes; but that would reduce the number of marines necessary, would it not? Secretary NEWBERRY. By the number of marines that were taken from the ships, 2,677. Mr. TALBOTT. That would reduce the number of the Marine Corps by that much? It ought to, ought it not? Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes; I mean as far as their services go. Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes; but my understanding is that it was contemplated in the order as issued that they were to be ready to embark and to have attached about 1,000 men to each fleet. That is as I read it, and it appears in the letter that I read. Mr. TALBOTT. That, then, would increase the number of men in the service marines and blue jackets together, 2,200, would it not, if you kept the Marine Corps at the present number? Secretary NEWBERRY. It would not unless you increased the enlisted force above the present number. It would not increase either one or the other under proposed law or any proposed legislation. It would not increase the Marine Corps or the enlisted force at this time. Mr. PADGETT. Mr. Secretary, last year a request was submitted to Congress for an increase of the marine Corps, officers and men, of |