at a day's notice. As a matter of fact, these effects have been transported at public expense for many years, but this little item of packing and crating does not amount to much, and I have not put in a separate appropriation for it; I think the whole thing will not amount to $500 a year. Under this decision of the Comptroller we are required to do it, and I simply wanted authority of Congress to include that in our act, so that there would not be any question about it.

The CHAIRMAN. Then on page 168 there is this proviso: "Provided, That hereafter extra-duty pay will not be allowed to enlisted men of the Marine Corps except when they are regularly detailed thereon by a written order of the commandant of the corps." What does that mean?

Colonel DENNY. It means this, that under a decision of the Court of Claims, about a year ago, it was held that if an enlisted man was detailed on extra duty by order of his commanding officer or any other officer in authority at that post, he was entitled to receive from 35 to 50 cents a day for such extra duty. We found in practice that if his commanding officer or other officer would order a man to extra duty we would not know anything about it for three or four months, or possibly six months, so that there had been charged against the appropriation under the decision referred to a sum of money that we were not counting on, and which if multiplied by many cases might involve a deficiency. The Comptroller personally advised me, or suggested to me, that we should put in the act a provision that hereafter this should not be done except by order of the commandant of the corps, and in writing, and then keep track of the number of cases, so as to know at any time the condition of the appropriation. It does not involve any appropriation.

General ELLIOTT. If they have not the authority to do it, they do it without authority.

Colonel DENNY. In these cases any officer can order a man to that extra duty, and that man is entitled to the extra pay.

Mr. ROBERTS. What sort of duty is it that comes under this? Colonel DENNY. Oh, a man may be ordered to do any number of things. He may be given duty as a painter or a plasterer or driver of a public wagon or hostler in keeping a public horse, or in police work in the nature of repairs and improvements of barracks, or overseer of squads of men doing certain work. Permission to employ men in this way in suitable numbers has always been granted by the commandant and will be in future. It will not be detrimental to the men. But under this provision we will know how many men are on this duty, and how we stand financially. We had, I think, 117 such cases in the last year.

Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. It is to stop what might become an abuse? Colonel DENNY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. This closes these items. I believe that is all, General.

(At 4.30 o'clock p. m. the committee adjourned.)

(The following table was submitted by Colonel Richards:)

[No. 12.]

THE COMMITTEE ON NAVAL AFFAIRS.

House of Representatives,

Thursday, January 7, 1909.

The committee this day met, Hon. George E. Foss in the chair.

STATEMENT OF HON. TRUMAN H. NEWBERRY, SECRETARY OF THE NAVY, ACCOMPANIED BY REAR-ADMIRAL JOHN E. PILLSBURY, CHIEF, BUREAU OF NAVIGATION.

The CHAIRMAN. There are some matters in connection with the naval appropriation bill which the committee is now preparing that we desire to get your opinion on, and also your advice. The first matter I desire to call your attention to is on page 7 of the bill, where there is this provision:

Provided further, That hereafter the rates of pay of the clerical, drafting, inspection, and messenger force at navy-yards and naval stations and other stations and offices under the Navy Department shall be paid from lump appropriations and shall be fixed by the Secretary of the Navy on a per annum or per diem basis, as he may elect; that the number may be increased or decreased at his option and shall be distributed at the various navy-yards and naval stations by the Secretary of the Navy to meet the needs of the naval service, and that such per diem employees may hereafter, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Navy, be granted leave of absence not to exceed fifteen days in any one year, which leave may, in exceptional and meritorious cases where such an employee is ill, be extended, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Navy, not to exceed fifteen days additional in any one year; that the total amount expended annually for pay for such clerical, drafting, and messenger force shall not exceed the amounts specifically allowed by Congress under the several lump appropriations, and that the Secretary of the Navy shall each year, in the annual estimates, report to Congress the number of persons so employed, their duties, and the amount paid to each: that section fifteen hundred and forty-five, Revised Statutes, is hereby repealed.

That is a provision which we are inserting for the first time in the appropriation bill, upon the recommendation of the PaymasterGeneral, and I understand that it meets with the approval of the department.

Secretary NEWBERRY. It does. The matter has had very serious consideration for some time, and it is possibly unnecessary for me to cover the ground which the Paymaster-General has gone over, unless you want me to do so, as I went over it with him before he came here. I shall be glad to give my own reasons, which, however, he has already given.

The CHAIRMAN. I shall be glad if you will state your own reasons for recommending this provision.

Secretary NEWBERRY. In the department's estimates for the fiscal year 1910 specific positions under the appropriation "Civil Estab

lishment" are dropped and lump sums submitted under the following appropriations to cover the pay of all clerks, draftsmen, inspectors, and other classified employees at navy-yards and naval stations: Pay, miscellaneous.

Construction and repair.

Steam machinery.

Ordnance and ordnance stores.

Equipment of vessels.

Maintenance.

Provisions.

Maintenance, Great Lakes Training Station.
Naval War College.

Naval training station, Newport, R. I. (Omitted through inadvertence. Bureau of Navigation has been directed to submit supplemental estimates.)

For many years the appropriations under "Civil Establishment have been entirely inadequate to carry on the clerical, drafting, and inspection work at navy-yards and naval stations.

Mr. HOBSON. In that connection I would like to ask a question: Do you, Mr. Secretary, understand that " and other stations "includes the drafting and clerical force of the superintending constructors at the yards?

Secretary NEWBERRY. It does.

This condition has been recognized by the naval committees, and in the deficiency act approved May 30, 1908, the Secretary of the Navy is authorized to continue to employ and pay out of lump appropriations of the several bureaus of the Navy Department such classified employees as may be necessary to properly perform the clerical, drafting, inspection, messenger, and other classified work at the several navy-yards and stations, and the department is directed to submit to Congress estimates for all classified employees that may be required for the fiscal year 1910. In order to have all such employees on a uniform basis, the relatively small number of positions specifically appropriated for under "Civil Establishment" have been dropped and lump sums inserted under the several appropriations above referred to to cover all employees of this character. Detailed lists showing all such positions as of date December 1, 1908, I think, are before the committee. We sent them up a few days ago, and will show the appropriation from which each position is now paid, and will indicate the appropriation from which each position will be paid if the department's estimates for the fiscal year 1910 are approved by Congress. Under the proposed plan all employees of this character will be treated alike with regard to leave of absence. At present a per annum employee under "Civil Establishment" receives thirty days' annual leave, and if his case is considered especially meritorious, he can be granted an additional thirty days' leave with pay if absence is caused by sickness. That has been rarely the case in my experience.

The CHAIRMAN. We have made a little change in your provision by which we provide that "per diem employees may hereafter, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Navy, be granted leave of absence not to exceed fifteen days in any one year, which leave may, in exceptional and meritorious cases, where such an employee is ill, be extended, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Navy, not to

exceed fifteen days additional in any one year." We modified it a little.

Secretary NEWBERRY. If you contemplate making a lump appropriation for all, it does not make any difference. At present a per annum employee in the civil establishment receives thirty days' annual leave, and while his pay may be less, he gets fifteen days more than the other employee and it is hard to equalize it. That is one of the reasons why it is very desirable to have them all in one class and paid out of the same fund.

At present a per annum employee under "Civil Establishment " receives thirty days' annual leave, and if his case is considered especially meritorious, he can be granted additional thirty days' leave with pay if absence is caused by sickness, while a per diem employee paid from a lump appropriation, who is engaged upon the same character of work, can be given no leave with pay during the first year of employment, and afterwards receives but fifteen days' leave with pay each calendar year at the rate of one and one-fourth days per month as earned, and if absent on account of sickness can be given no additional leave with pay. If all positions should be specifically appropriated for under "Civil Establishments," there would be no elascticity, and this is of more importance at navy-yards than in the executive departments at Washington, as at the navy-yards the amount of work varies and it is essential that the Secretary should have authority to increase or diminish the force at the various yards to meet the necessities of the service.

Is there any question you wish to ask? That I consider one of the fundamental reasons.

The CHAIRMAN. It gives elasticity?

Secretary NEWBERRY. Yes, sir. The desire of having everybody specifically appropriated for is advisable for some reasons, but for navy-yard administration it would be exceedingly unfortunate, because of the very peculiar conditions under which navy-yards have to be managed, the rush of work, and then the falling off of work, which require some changes in the clerical force all the time.

Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. What is the manner of procedure under the present arrangement?

Secretary NEWBERRY. We take on, under the present arrangement, thirty-day employees through the Civil-Service Commission.

Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. Not the Civil-Service Commission?

Secretary NEWBERRY. We get them through the Civil Service Commission. Our employees on the clerical force come through the Civil Service Commission.

Mr. LOUDENSLAGER. Your own civil service?

Secretary NEWBERRY. No. The clerical force employees are all taken on through the Civil Service Commission.

The Secretary of the Navy has always had such authority, so far as laborers and mechanics are concerned. The employment of a small portion of the force on a per annum basis, with thirty days' leave and the possibility of thirty additional days on account of sickness, and of a larger portion of the same force on a per diem. basis, with fifteen days' leave after the first year and no sick leave, creates considerable dissatisfaction. It should be borne in mind that these employees do not receive any additional pay for overtime work. The proposed plan is simply and purely a business propo