for our work at these places, where these places are entirely under our control. The other bureaus have no footing.

The CHAIRMAN. "New machinery and tools for torpedo factory, two hundred thousand dollars."

Admiral MASON. There was requested for the fiscal year 1909 $159,000 for new machinery for torpedo factory, in order that the output of the factory would be 50 torpedoes per year, and of this amount $50,000 was allowed by Congress. In order that the output of the factory may be 100 torpedoes per year, it is estimated that a sum of $200,000 will be required, and it is urgently recommended that this sum may be appropriated in order that the United States may be placed on the same footing as other countries in regard to the manufacture of torpedoes, and in view of the fact that at the present time we are very short of the supply necessary for outfitting vessels now in service, without considering a reserve supply, which is also necessary. This is due to the fact that from 1898 to 1904 no torpedoes were manufactured nor contracted for, and the appropriations since that time have not been sufficient to make up for the deficiencies in those years. The resources for the manufacture of torpedoes in this country are not equal to the needs of the navy, and it is not good policy to buy torpedoes abroad if it can possibly be avoided. There are 445 torpedoes of all kinds now on hand, of which nearly all are obsolete; in fact, only 55 of these can be considered up-to-date. From the best information available, it is believed that Great Britain has 10,000 torpedoes, Japan and Germany each 4,000, France 4,000; and that these countries manufacture annually from 100 to 200 torpedoes.

As a matter of fact, this was the memorandum I was looking for, which answers most of the questions, but in addition I will put in another memorandum.

MEMORANDUM SHOWING PRESENT TORPEDO SITUATION.

There are now on hand 445 torpedoes.

Of this number there are only 55 of the latest high-speed type.

There are 420 torpedoes under contract which are of the high-speed type; of these 130 are being manufactured by the Whitehead Torpedo Works, Weymouth, England, and 290 by the E. W. Bliss Company, Brooklyn, N. Y.

One hundred and five torpedoes included in the total number of 445 will be efficient after remodeling.

Under the appropriation "Armor and armament," including the appropriation of this Congress for vessels authorized last year, there will be authority for the manufacture of 166 5m x 45c/m torpedoes and 52 5m x 21" torpedoes, and the appropriation of "Reserve torpedoes and appliances, 1909," provides for 20 additional torpedoes to be manufactured at the torpedo station.

This will make a total of 186 5m x 45c/m torpedoes and 52 5m x 21" torpedoes authorized.

In addition to those torpedoes authorized and under contract there will be needed to furnish one complete outfit and one reserve outfit of efficient torpedoes 278 5m x 45c/m torpedoes and 356 5m x 21" torpedoes.

It is hoped in the future to build up a much greater reserve than this, as foreign navies number their reserve torpedoes in the thousands.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the cost of manufacturing torpedoes?
Mr. HOBSON. How many did you say Germany had?

Admiral MASON. France and Germany each 4,000.

Mr. HOBSON. And Japan how many?

Admiral MASON. Japan 4,000. They manufacture annually from 100 to 200 torpedoes.

Mr. PADGETT. How many did we buy last year?

Admiral MASON. We bought 50 last year, 130 this year-50 delivered from abroad, and we have received from the Bliss Company 110 altogether, of different kinds.

Mr. PADGETT. That would be 150?

Do I understand that the development in the torpedo business is so rapid that an improvement is made before the fellow can make the first one?

Admiral MASON. The existing contracts were made with the Bliss Company in 1905.

Mr. PADGETT. Then what we learn from that is, we ought to be careful about making those long-time contracts and keep our contracts up from year to year.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you not provide in the contracts for new improvements from time to time?

Admiral MASON. We intend to, but on this torpedo, after you get started on a certain type, it is rather hard work to make the improvements on that type without tearing it all to pieces and starting over again.

Mr. PADGETT. Then you had better not buy so many of them until you have demonstrated

Admiral MASON. We have demonstrated it. The Bliss Company's torpedo, the present torpedo they are giving us, is passing excellent tests and the ones we are getting from abroad are passing excellent tests, and we are duplicating those at the torpedo station, although we have not finished them yet.

Mr. PADGETT. But we are buying and paying for, currently, now, a lot of them that are not up-to-date?

Admiral MASON. Under one contract of three years ago. It is hoped the torpedoes under these contracts will be up-to-date when completed.

Mr. PADGETT. Those torpedos are not up-to-date and they are costing $5,000 or $6,000 apiece?

Admiral MASON. From $5,500 to $7,100, but they will be up-todate when completed.

The CHAIRMAN. "For advance base outfit, three hundred and fifty thousand dollars." What is an advance-base outfit? What do you supply?

Admiral MASON. Advance base material or an advance base outfit is material necessary for sending with a flying expedition to seize an advance base for naval purposes. It consists of guns, mounts, emplacements, ammunition, torpedoes, air compressors, and almost everything else that would be used by an expeditionary force in an emergency. I have here quite a long statement. We have asked for this for three years, now. It is a department order, not of the Bureau of Ordnance, really. An estimate for this purpose was submitted in 1905 and resubmitted in 1906 and 1907, but not allowed. The bureau considers it extremely desirable that this estimate be included in this year's appropriation bill in order that a satisfactory outfit for advance bases may be provided. During the last four years the bureau has attempted, by direction of the Navy Department, to assemble material for two advance bases, one on the Atlantic coast and the other on the Pacific.

A small quantity of material has been assembled and reserved for advance bases, using guns no longer available for use on board ship and the current appropriation for necessary material. An attempt to use this for drill purposes in the Pacific showed that it was totally inadequate and some of it obsolete. The necessity for material of this kind ready for immediate shipment to any point was shown during the Spanish war, when circumstances suddenly demanded the use of Guantanamo as a base of operations and lack of material to defend it required that two or more vessels of the fleet which were urgently needed for other purposes were forced to remain to protect the base, supplying guns and ammunition from their own stores for the purpose. During the last war a great advantage was gained by one of the powers by their readiness to seize and protect a base near a port which they had blockaded and also another base for use of their fleet while waiting the approach of the enemy in force from his home ports. Owing to the limited coal and ammunition carrying capacity, storeships and colliers must accompany a fleet and remain near during a campaign, but must not restrict the movements of the battle fleet, at the same time being protected from depredation of the enemy's light, swift cruisers. This can best be accomplished by the seizing of an undefended harbor near the place of operations of the fleet and pro tecting it from attacks of any but a large force by means of guns on shore, mines, and torpedoes. Once supplied, this material would remain ready for use at all times and the expense of maintenance would be small As a matter of fact they want this $350,000 to collect material for two advance bases, one on this coast and one on the west coast.

The CHAIRMAN. "For experimental work in the development of armor-piercing projectiles, fuses, powders, and high explosives, and so forth, two hundred thousand dollars."

Admiral MASON. This was asked for last year, and a long statement was made in the hearing. It is something that I consider is absolutely necessary. This estimade is made with a view to providing a fund for necessary experimental work entirely independent of current expenditures. The bureau has already done what lay within its power by authorizing limited expenditures from the appropriations Ordnance and ordnance stores" and "Armor and armament," and whenever the work in hand was as clearly related to the purposes to these appropriations as to justify this course. But the time has come when no such makeshift policy as this will satisfy the demand, which is becoming more urgent every day. Our navy, as represented by this bureau, should at least keep abreast of other navies, if it does not lead them, in the development of all branches of ordnance material. The developments of the immediate future promise to be far more important than those of the past, and they are already opening up many lines of investigation so vital that we can not afford to be left behind in any one of them.

Some of the most urgently needed data which it is designed to obtain through experiments made possible by this appropriation are in connection with the ballistics and chemistry of smokeless powder, erosion of guns, new designs of projectiles, and high explosive shell and their fuses.

The nature of the work contemplated is such, however, that it is impossible to state definitely what experiments will be made. The

best results will be obtained by suiting the experiments to the solution of the many difficult problems arising from time to time in the development and service use of the various ordnance materials.

We have been robbing Peter to pay Paul now for many years. Whenever something new is presented, when a new idea comes, we have to hunt around for the necessary funds to experiment with. Under the appropriation "Ordnance and ordnance stores" we can, if we can spare the money, do this, but it is not often we can do it. Sometimes under "Armament and armor," when the experiment is closely allied to the development of the armament of a new battle ship, we can use that appropriation. But we ought to have an experimental fund that we can make use of to develop any points which will tend to improve the efficiency of ordnance. The War Department has a fund something like it under the Fortifications Board, and other countries, as far as I know, are experimenting all the time. We ar very anxious to find out whether the proving-ground ideas, or rather the proving-ground data and results concerning the impact of projectiles against armor plate, are or will be carried out when that armor plate is moved 8,000 yards away from the gun.

Mr. HOBSON. I notice you have nothing that pertains to experimenting on anything but ordnance. Would you not like something to experiment on torpedoes?

*

Admiral MASON. It was our intention in wording it that it should mean new ordnance. I should say that torpedoes are considered as ordnance. It reads "armor piercing projectiles, fuzes, powders, and high explosives * * and for experimental work under the cognizance of the Bureau of Ordnance in connection with the development of ordnance material for the Navy." I should say that would cover it. I would, of course, like to be able to experiment with tor pedoes, too. I think, Mr. Chairman, that is one of the most urgent things we have. I wish we could have it at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. "Arming and equipping naval militia." You have introduced here the word ammunition."

Admiral MASON. At the suggestion of the department we added the words "ammunition" and "medical outfits."

The CHAIRMAN. Have you not furnished ammunition heretofore? Admiral MASON. No, sir.

Mr. PADGETT. Where did they get the ammunition heretofore, from what fund?

Admiral MASON. I do not know. I think they furnished it themselves. I will say, too, we have furnished it in this way, that whenever they went out for target practice on government ships, they were allowed to fire the small guns, the secondary battery, from the allowance of the ship; but of course where they have their own ships they have bought ammunition from us under their own allotments, and they have paid for it. The Assistant Secretary's office controls all of this, and the Bureau of Ordnance is used only as a vehicle for disbursing the appropriation, and I put that in there by direction of the Secretary. It was only so that they could buy a certain amount of ordnance for target practice.

Mr. PADGETT. I had supposed if we were maintaining the ships and encouraging the practice that we were giving them something to make a fuss with.

77013-09-8

Mr. HOBSON. Those fellows have been going into their own pockets to get that ammunition.

Admiral MASON. This does not change it at all; it just authorizes it. As I say, the Bureau of Ordnance has to disburse this, and they came in with an order to give them some 5-inch or 3-inch ammunition, and in looking over the law we came to the conclusion that we could not do it; that we could not make the expenditure on our books without having this in.

The CHAIRMAN. How about the medical outfits?

Admiral MASON. It is the same way with the medical outfits. There were not any.

Mr. PADGETT. The word "signal" excluded "medical," and limited it to signal outfits; that was your interpretation?

Admiral MASON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You have also inserted "and maintenance" of boats?

Admiral MASON. Yes, so that it reads "boats and their equipment and maintenance."

The CHAIRMAN. Then you have inserted the words "Territories and the District of Columbia?" That is new. I do not think we have any naval militia in connection with Territories.

Admiral MASON. Perhaps not. I think that they want them. The CHAIRMAN. The appropriation is the same asked for before, $100,000?

Admiral MASON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The next is "Repairs, Bureau of Ordnance: For necessary repairs to ordnance buildings, and wharves at naval magazines, naval torpedo station, and naval proving ground and powder factory, and to machinery and other items of like character at navyyards and stations, fifty thousand dollars.'

Admiral MASON. That is the same, except we have cut out from the old appropriation gun parks, boats, and lighters. We no longer have gun parks; and as for the boats and lighters, the repairs to them have for several years past been made by another bureau, which has cognizance of boats and lighters. We have not made any repairs for several years of that kind, so that it was cut out of the appropriation. But the repairs to buildings and grounds and tools, and so forth, are increasing right straight along as the navy increases. We have asked for an increase now for several years.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you need an increase as large as that, $20,000? Admiral MASON. I think so: we have struggled along. Fortunately this work could be done under the appropriation for ordnance and ordnance stores, so that in an emergency we could use some of that. The CHAIRMAN. The next is "contingent." We have always calle that "miscellaneous."

Admiral MASON. It was $20,000, and then it was cut down to $14,000, and now it is cut to $10,000, because the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts takes the expressage.

The CHAIRMAN. Now I believe we go over to public works, on page 91.

Admiral MASON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The first is "Naval proving ground, Indian Head, Maryland. Blacksmith and pipe shop, three thousand six hundred and twenty-five dollars."