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Senator Cain. Well, in just a word, you are sympathetic to the proposed teachers' salary increases program, and only if they can be paid out of revenues that are in addition to that which you have budgeted for your own general fund operations.

Commissioner Mason. Well, we have budgeted all the revenue in sight; and that is true, Senator—we cannot approve a bill at the sacrifice of all other departments.

Senator Cain. If you had to make a choice between granting these salaries or keeping your own budget items, as you hope to have them approved, you would have to go along with your own financial arrangements ?

Commissioner Mason. That is true, sir.

Mr. BATES. Mr. Chairman, if I may ask the Commissioner a question. Mr. Commissioner, you say that the Commission has not given intensive study to this bill.

Commissioner Mason. The Commissioners; no. The bill under the act of Congress granting the $150 bonus—the law provided for the board of education to do that. Now the corporation counsel assisted only in respect to the technical drafting of the bill. This is a board of education bill, and we have not gone over it in detail yet.

Mr. Bates. Well, Mr. Commissioner, this is one of your responsibilities.

Commissioner Mason. That is correct.
Mr. Bares. That is something that nobody can get away from.
Commissioner Mason. That is correct.

Mr. Bates. It embraces an expenditure of a fifth of all the expenditures of the Government here in the District, and here is a bill before us, notwithstanding what we are told to be the critical financial condition of this District, it is calling for an annual outlay of $1,000,000 a year over and above that already expended in the school department.

Commissioner Mason. I believe the bill ultimately will cost that much.

Mr. Bates. Do you not think that a bill of that kind ought to receive the most careful attention and consideration of the Commissioners of the District of Columbia who, after all, we must look to for advice and direction on a matter of this kind. I do not know what the Senate chairman thinks about it, but I certainly will not take any action until we hear directly from the Commissioners as to how they stand on a matter of this kind.

Mr. WALTER FOWLER (Budget Officer, District of Columbia). Mr. Bates, may I read this provision to you?

Mr. BATES. I am familiar with that just as well as you are. That is where Congress asked that a survey and a study be made and report back to Congress.

Mr. FOWLER. That is right.

Mr. Bates. And we have the report here. That is what you are referring to, is it not?

Mr. FOWLER. That is what I am referring to, and it left the Commissioners out.

Mr. Bares. What I want to know is what the District Commissioners' opinion is of this bill.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, let me give it to you this way.
Mr. Bates. The Commissioner cannot do it himself; is that it?

Mr. FOWLER. The Commissioner can. Commissioner Mason. I certainly can. In the first place, the bill did not get to us until

within the last week or 10 days. Mr. FOWLER. The Corporation Counsel is here, and he knows when they prepared it.

Commissioner Mason. It was prepared and sent back to the school people.

Dr. CORNING. May I just say in that connection that everything went simultaneously to the Commissioners when it went to the Hill. We sent it directly to the Hill, but simultaneously it went to the Commissioners.

Mr. Bares. You would like to have more time to study the bill?

Commissioner Mason. We have got to have more time to study the details.

Mr. BATES. And then you will be able to answer the committee's inquiry as to how the Commission feels about it.

Commissioner Mason. Because the bill involves classifications into the teaching structure, and we are not familiar with it at the present time, and there was an effort made to compromise our own differences in that field, and that is what held up the bill.

Mrs. DoYLE. When we called upon you, Mr. Mason, you will recall, as soon as it was finished, the hearings had been held, and from our point of view it was finished.

Commissioner Mason. That was in the latter part of March just before the bill was sent up.

Mrs. DoYLE. No; that was not the date; it was much earlier than that, to acquaint the Commissioners with the situation, and you were then good enough to tell us that Mr. West

Commissioner Mason. But you had not drafted the bill; it had not been drafted.

Mrs. DoYLE. But all the provisions were ready for it; we realized this peculiar situation where we were reporting directly to Congress, and we wanted you to know everything that we had done, so we made an early appointment with you, and if you recall, I explained it to you, and we felt that the drafting of it, while very important, was, however, merely the instrument to carry forward the report that we brought to you, and Mr. West worked on that, which has taken some time, of course.

Mr. BATES. Of course, Mr. Chairman, this is a matter of very farreaching importance, in my opinion, and it very seriously affects the fiscal affairs of this District. It is nothing new to me; I have been through this before in other communities.

Mrs. DOYLE. So I understand.

Mr. Bates. I think it is a matter that needs a good deal of explanation and study. I have quite a good deal of material myself that we have to collect within a very few hours, because we only received that bill ourselves last week; and after all, we have a Commission here that

a is set up by statute to administer the affairs of the District, and that includes the financial administration of all departments, trying to correlate all the available revenue, and then to disburse it or to spend it along the many lines of municipal activities. I have been just long enough in this business to know that the amount that we can give to any department is a relative question, and it all simmers down

to what is a reasonable load to put upon the taxpayers of this or any other community. I have not any preconceived idea as to my position on this bill. I want that clear at the outset. I am approaching it as I have all other matters in respect to the study of the fiscal problems of this District over the past ten years that we have been carrying on in this committee for the last month or so, trying to find out what is the best way by which we can find additional revenue through new sources that have been recommended to us, in order to see if we cannot operate all of the activities of the District that the Commissioners and the Congress feel ought to be operated in an efficient manner.

So, it is a relative question, Mrs. Doyle; that is what I am coming to, and in the consideration of that relative question, relative conditions must be considered, not only the cost of living, the rate of wages, the salaries here, but also everywhere, and the general approach to the question of education and the loss of teachers that you are speaking about; those are the things that we want to hear from the witnesses who appear before us today.

Mrs. DOYLE. Well, Mr. Chairman, I do understand your reference that it must be relative; but, of course, as the Chairman of the Board, I think that consideration must be taken of the human element, of whether the citizens in this voteless community, and we have to lean upon you, of course, to get our wishes interpreted into law, want things for their children or do they want them for something else; and my answer is that relative though it may be, that the citizens of Washington want things for their children first.

Mr. BATEs. Well, that may be applied to the education of the children, the health of the children, the protection of the children.

Mrs. DoYLE. That is right. Mr. Bates. There are so many activities in this community that are for the interest of children, as well as for the interest of adults, that it is pretty hard to draw the line of where to stop, partially diminish or go on; it is a relative question.

Mrs. Doyle. I suppose, working on the Board for 20 years, as I have, because I am a real old-timer, as I pass among the citizens of the community and hear them talk, I have never, I can say, found anyone who did not deplore the situation of our schools part time going on year after year; and my own children, the youngest

of whom is 26, never went full time in the District of Columbia until they reached the fourth grade.

Mr. Bates. And that is another one of the relative questions that we are considering here.

Mrs. DoYLE. And now we have 7,000 children on part time.
Mr. BATEs. That is right.

Mrs. DOYLE. And we have just got to plan for the future, as I am sure, that that is what is in your mind, to see that we are going to plan it year after year

in the future so that the children will once and for all time get it on a good basis.

Mr. Bates. Of course, the matter of 7,000 children being on a twoplatoon system has nothing to do with this bill; this is a salary proposition.

Mrs. Doyle. Yes, sir; and all that type of planning and planning is the one thing that I hope the District of Columbia will give attention to the planning of a living salary, which is just as basic as any.

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Mr. FOWLER. The Commissioner can. Commissioner Mason. I certainly can. In the first place, the bill did not get to us until within the last week or 10 days.

Mr. FOWLER. The Corporation Counsel is here, and he knows when they prepared it.

Commissioner Mason. It was prepared and sent back to the school people.

Dr. CORNING. May I just say in that connection that everything went simultaneously to the Commissioners when it went to the Hill. We sent it directly to the Hill, but simultaneously it went to the Commissioners.

Mr. BATES. You would like to have more time to study the bill?

Commissioner Mason. We have got to have more time to study the details.

Mr. BATES. And then you will be able to answer the committee's inquiry as to how the Commission feels about it.

Commissioner MASON. Because the bill involves classifications into the teaching structure, and we are not familiar with it at the present time, and there was an effort made to compromise our own differences in that field; and that is what held up the bill.

Mrs. DoYLE. When we called upon you, Mr. Mason, you will recall, as soon as it was finished, the hearings had been held, and from our point of view it was finished.

Commissioner Mason. That was in the latter part of March just before the bill was sent up.

Mrs. DoYLE. No; that was not the date; it was much earlier than that, to acquaint the Commissioners with the situation, and you were then good enough to tell us that Mr. West

Commissioner Mason. But you had not drafted the bill; it had not been drafted.

Mrs. DoYLE. But all the provisions were ready for it; we realized this peculiar situation where we were reporting directly to Congress, and we wanted you to know everything that we had done, so we made an early appointment with you, and if you recall, I explained it to you, and we felt that the drafting of it, while very important, was, however, merely the instrument to carry forward the report that we brought to you, and Mr. West worked on that, which has taken some time, of course.

Mr. Bates. Of course, Mr. Chairman, this is a matter of very farreaching importance, in my opinion, and it very seriously affects the fiscal affairs of this District. “It is nothing new to me; I have been through this before in other communities.

Mrs. DoYLE. So I understand.

Mr. Bates. I think it is a matter that needs a good deal of explana. tion and study. I have quite a good deal of material myself that we have to collect within a very few hours, because we only received that bill ourselves last week; and after all, we have a Commission here that is set up by statute to administer the affairs of the District, and that includes the financial administration of all departments, trying to correlate all the available revenue, and then to disburse it or to spend it along the many lines of municipal activities. I have been just long enough in this business to know that the amount that we can give to any department is a relative question, and it all simmers down

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to what is a reasonable load to put upon the taxpayers of this or any other community. I have not any preconceived idea as to my position on this bill. I want that clear at the outset. I am approaching it as I have all other matters in respect to the study of the fiscal problems of this District over the past ten years that we have been carrying on in this committee for the last month or so, trying to find out what is the best way by which we can find additional revenue through new sources that have been recommended to us, in order to see if we cannot operate all of the activities of the District that the Commissioners and the Congress feel ought to be operated in an efficient manner.

So, it is a relative question, Mrs. Doyle; that is what I am coming to, and in the consideration of that relative question, relative conditions must be considered, not only the cost of living, the rate of wages, the salaries here, but also everywhere, and the general approach to the question of education and the loss of teachers that you are speaking about; those are the things that we want to hear from the witnesses who appear before us today,

Mrs. Doyle. Well, Mr. Chairman, I do understand your reference that it must be relative; but, of course, as the Chairman of the Board, I think that consideration must be taken of the human element, of whether the citizens in this voteless community, and we have to lean upon you, of course, to get our wishes interpreted into law, want things for their children or do they want them for something else; and my answer is that relative though it may be, that the citizens of Washington want things for their children first.

Mr. BATEs. Well, that may be applied to the education of the children, the health of the children, the protection of the children.

Mrs. Doyle. That is right.

Mr. Bates. There are so many activities in this community that are for the interest of children, as well as for the interest of adults, that it is pretty hard to draw the line of where to stop, partially diminish or go on; it is a relative question.

Mrs. DoYLE. I suppose, working on the Board for 20 years, as I have, because I am a real old-timer, as I pass among the citizens of the community and hear them talk, 'I have never, I can say, found anyone who did not deplore the situation of our schools part time going on year after year; and my own children, the youngest of whom is 26, never went full time in the District of Columbia until they reached the fourth grade.

Mr. BATEs. And that is another one of the relative questions that we are considering here.

Mrs. DoYLE. And now we have 7,000 children on part time.
Mr. Bates. That is right.

Mrs. DoYLE. And we have just got to plan for the future, as I am sure, that that is what is in your mind, to see that we are going to plan it year after year

in the future so that the children will once and for all time get it on a good basis.

Mr. Bates. Of course, the matter of 7,000 children being on a twoplatoon system has nothing to do with this bill; this is a salary proposition.

Mrs. Doyle. Yes, sir; and all that type of planning and planning is the one thing that I hope the District of Columbia will give attention to the planning of a living salary, which is just as basic as any.

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