Senator CAIN. The dollars requested are the same, then, for 194 outside of these two?

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes.

Mr. BATES. Have you given any consideration to a farm that the prisoners can be used on to produce food?

Mr. CLEMMER. We have a farm, Congressman, of some 900 acre and the average produce for the last 10 years is about $79,000. Mr. BATES. That is all cultivated land, you mean?

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes; that is cultivated land.

Mr. BATES. That is in connection with what institution?

Mr. CLEMMER. That is in connection with the workhouse. The situation is that a good many of our drunks are fairly old and cannot do very heavy farm work.

Mr. BATES. They can do some weeding. It would probably do the a lot of good.

Mr. CLEMMER. We work them all we can.

Mr. BATES. We read a good deal in the papers-and I am not saying! this in any critical sense of Alcoholics Anonymous. It seems to be growing throughout the country. Have you given any thought as to the benefits that can develop from an organization of that kind?

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes; not only that, but our members of that group come down to the workhouse, 30 miles away, every Saturday afternoo We invite the drunks to come in. One of our officers sits in the back of the room and these four or five Alcoholic Anonymous members come up and preach their story to the men. We think it is helping some. Mr. BATES. I think it is quite a proven fact that no matter how many times you commit a habitual drunk, no matter how well meaning he may be at least that has been my experience in life with these menthat you just do not make any impression on them. Some of them, of course, recover, but I am thoroughly in accord with the sentiments expressed that we have to treat that more on the basis of a disease than perhaps any violation of the criminal code.

am

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes; I am, too. Of course, a few of our inmates are rather bright ones. They say, "If I am an alcoholic, I therefore diseased; and if I am diseased, I need treatment and I do not have to work."

Mr. BATES. I know there is that psychological factor.
Mr. CLEMMER. Part of our treatment is work.

Mr. BATES. I am thoroughly in accord with that, too.

Senator CAIN. I would say that is a rather happy thought with which to conclude our morning's session. With your permission, Mr. Bates, and that of the other gentlemen of the committee, I would sug gest that we recess our hearings until Tuesday morning at 10 o'clock.

If it is agreeable to continue our hearings at 10 o'clock Tuesday, I would suggest that the committee would like to hear as their first witness the official from the schools of the District.

Mr. BATES. I had hoped that I would be here to hear the testimony on schools, because I think it is by far the department of the city which accounts for a significant portion of total expenditures.

Senator CAIN. I would suggest that with the approval of the Commissioners we could very easily hear on Tuesday morning from the official of the library and begin with the engineering division.

Mr. MASON. We can have the library, rent control, and purchasing office.

Tue

Senator CAIN. I should think those three would just about take up esday morning.

Mr. MASON. And put the schools over?

Senator CAIN. I would appreciate that, and Mr. Bates would. Mr. BATES. What we would like to do, Mr. Chairman, is to finish these hearings so far as an examination of the financial structure the District is concerned, as quickly as we can, and then get down the witnesses. There may be some representatives of civic organitions that have some thoughts relative to the expenditures which ey would like to bring before us.

Senator CAIN. We will adjourn until 10 o'clock Tuesday morning. (Thereupon, at 11:45 a. m., an adjournment was taken to Tuesday, March 25, 1947, at 10 a. m.)

(Statement later received for the record from the Department of orrections.)

1938: Nine new employees allowed-1 parole officer, 2 clerks, 1 storekeeper, electrician, 1 farm supervisor, 2 guards, and 1 cook for an expanded program nd for population increase. An increase for supplies for increased population. 1939: Twenty-two new employees allowed-21 guards and 1 clerk, allowed for reater security. An amount allowed ($61,000) for support of District prisoners confined in Federal institutions.

1940: Thirty-five new employees allowed-32 guards, 1 engineer, 1 supervisor of the Sewage Division, 1 stenographer, and 1 parole officer. The additional employees to permit an expanded program and to give greater security. There vas an increase in the amount for support of District prisoners in Federal nstitutions.

1941: Twenty-nine additional employees allowed-25 guards, 1 assistant chief guard, 1 superintendent, Women's Division, 1 chief steward, and 1 farm supervisor. A further increase in support of District prisoners in Federal institutions. Additional employees to give greater security.

1942: Six additional employees allowed-3 guards, 1 operating engineer. 1 mail clerk, and 1 nurse, for an expanded program. Additional funds allowed to cover increased cost resulting from Public Law 200, authorizing within-grade promotions.

1943: Fifteen additional employees allowed-9 guards, 2 clerks, 1 classification officer, 1 electrician, 1 principal operating engineer, 1 assistant clerk. Additional increase for supplies and materials for rise in costs.

1944: Twenty-two additional employees allowed-5 guards, 1 cook, 3 clerks, 1 captain of the watch, 1 baker, 1 assistant stewart, 8 senior officers, 1 nurse, 1 director of education. These additional employees permitted a reduction in work-hours at the jail, and for expanded operation.

Additional costs incurred by reason of 40-hour workweek.

1945: Reduction of 50 employees by reason of inability to fill vacancies. 1946: Further reduction of 7 employees. Additional costs occasioned by 40-hour workweek and increase in cost of provisions.

99538-47— -16

Senator CAIN. The dollars requested are the same, then, for 194 outside of these two?

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes.

Mr. BATES. Have you given any consideration to a farm that the prisoners can be used on to produce food?

Mr. CLEMMER. We have a farm, Congressman, of some 900 acres and the average produce for the last 10 years is about $79,000. Mr. BATES. That is all cultivated land, you mean?

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes; that is cultivated land.

Mr. BATES. That is in connection with what institution?

Mr. CLEMMER. That is in connection with the workhouse. The situation is that a good many of our drunks are fairly old and cannot do very heavy farm work.

Mr. BATES. They can do some weeding. It would probably do them a lot of good.

Mr. CLEMMER. We work them all we can.

Mr. BATES. We read a good deal in the papers-and I am not saying this in any critical sense of Alcoholics Anonymous. It seems to be growing throughout the country. Have you given any thought as to the benefits that can develop from an organization of that kind?

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes; not only that, but our members of that group come down to the workhouse, 30 miles away, every Saturday afternoo We invite the drunks to come in. One of our officers sits in the back of the room and these four or five Alcoholic Anonymous members come up and preach their story to the men. We think it is helping some. Mr. BATES. I think it is quite a proven fact that no matter how many times you commit a habitual drunk, no matter how well meaning be may be at least that has been my experience in life with these menthat you just do not make any impression on them. Some of them, of course, recover, but I am thoroughly in accord with the sentiments expressed that we have to treat that more on the basis of a disease than perhaps any violation of the criminal code.

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes; I am, too. Of course, a few of our inmates are rather bright ones. They say, "If I am an alcoholic, I am therefore diseased; and if I am diseased, I need treatment and I do not have to work."

Mr. BATES. I know there is that psychological factor.
Mr. CLEMMER. Part of our treatment is work.

Mr. BATES. I am thoroughly in accord with that, too.

Senator CAIN. I would say that is a rather happy thought with which to conclude our morning's session. With your permission, Mr. Bates, and that of the other gentlemen of the committee, I would sug gest that we recess our hearings until Tuesday morning at 10 o'clock.

If it is agreeable to continue our hearings at 10 o'clock Tuesday, I would suggest that the committee would like to hear as their first witness the official from the schools of the District.

Mr. BATES. I had hoped that I would be here to hear the testimony on schools, because I think it is by far the department of the city which accounts for a significant portion of total expenditures.

Senator CAIN. I would suggest that with the approval of the Commissioners we could very easily hear on Tuesday morning from the official of the library and begin with the engineering division.

Mr. MASON. We can have the library, rent control, and purchasing office.

Senator CAIN. I should think those three would just about take up esday morning.

Mr. MASON. And put the schools over?

Senator CAIN. I would appreciate that, and Mr. Bates would. Mr. BATES. What we would like to do, Mr. Chairman, is to finish these hearings so far as an examination of the financial structure the District is concerned, as quickly as we can, and then get down the witnesses. There may be some representatives of civic organitions that have some thoughts relative to the expenditures which ey would like to bring before us.

Senator CAIN. We will adjourn until 10 o'clock Tuesday morning. (Thereupon, at 11:45 a. m., an adjournment was taken to Tuesday, March 25, 1947, at 10 a. m.)

(Statement later received for the record from the Department of orrections.)

1938: Nine new employees allowed-1 parole officer, 2 clerks, 1 storekeeper, electrician, 1 farm supervisor, 2 guards, and 1 cook for an expanded program nd for population increase. An increase for supplies for increased population. 1939: Twenty-two new employees allowed-21 guards and 1 clerk, allowed for reater security. An amount allowed ($61,000) for support of District prisoners confined in Federal institutions.

1940: Thirty-five new employees allowed-32 guards, 1 engineer, 1 supervisor of the Sewage Division, 1 stenographer, and 1 parole officer. The additional employees to permit an expanded program and to give greater security. There vas an increase in the amount for support of District prisoners in Federal nstitutions.

1941: Twenty-nine additional employees allowed-25 guards, 1 assistant chief quard, 1 superintendent, Women's Division, 1 chief steward, and 1 farm supervisor. A further increase in support of District prisoners in Federal institutions. Additional employees to give greater security.

1942: Six additional employees allowed-3 guards, 1 operating engineer. 1 mail clerk, and 1 nurse, for an expanded program. Additional funds allowed to cover increased cost resulting from Public Law 200, authorizing within-grade promotions.

1943: Fifteen additional employees allowed-9 guards, 2 clerks, 1 classification officer, 1 electrician, 1 principal operating engineer, 1 assistant clerk. Additional increase for supplies and materials for rise in costs.

1944: Twenty-two additional employees allowed-5 guards, 1 cook, 3 clerks, 1 captain of the watch, 1 baker, 1 assistant stewart, 8 senior officers, 1 nurse, 1 director of education. These additional employees permitted a reduction in work-hours at the jail, and for expanded operation.

Additional costs incurred by reason of 40-hour workweek.

1945: Reduction of 50 employees by reason of inability to fill vacancies. 1946: Further reduction of 7 employees. Additional costs occasioned by 40-hour workweek and increase in cost of provisions.

Senator CAIN. The dollars requested are the same, then, for 197 outside of these two?

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes.

Mr. BATES. Have you given any consideration to a farm that t prisoners can be used on to produce food?

Mr. CLEMMER. We have a farm, Congressman, of some 900 acre and the average produce for the last 10 years is about $79,000. Mr. BATES. That is all cultivated land, you mean?

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes; that is cultivated land.

Mr. BATES. That is in connection with what institution?

Mr. CLEMMER. That is in connection with the workhouse. Th situation is that a good many of our drunks are fairly old and cannot do very heavy farm work.

Mr. BATES. They can do some weeding. It would probably do them a lot of good.

Mr. CLEMMER. We work them all we can.

Mr. BATES. We read a good deal in the papers-and I am not saying this in any critical sense of Alcoholics Anonymous. It seems to b growing throughout the country. Have you given any thought as to the benefits that can develop from an organization of that kind?

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes; not only that, but our members of that group come down to the workhouse, 30 miles away, every Saturday afternoon We invite the drunks to come in. One of our officers sits in the back of the room and these four or five Alcoholic Anonymous members come up and preach their story to the men. We think it is helping some. Mr. BATES. I think it is quite a proven fact that no matter how many times you commit a habitual drunk, no matter how well meaning he may be at least that has been my experience in life with these men that you just do not make any impression on them. Some of them, of course, recover, but I am thoroughly in accord with the sentiments expressed that we have to treat that more on the basis of a disease than perhaps any violation of the criminal code.

Mr. CLEMMER. Yes; I am, too. Of course, a few of our inmates are rather bright ones. They say, "If I am an alcoholic, I am therefore diseased; and if I am diseased, I need treatment and I do not have to work."

Mr. BATES. I know there is that psychological factor.
Mr. CLEMMER. Part of our treatment is work.

Mr. BATES. I am thoroughly in accord with that, too.

Senator CAIN. I would say that is a rather happy thought with which to conclude our morning's session. With your permission, Mr. Bates, and that of the other gentlemen of the committee, I would sug gest that we recess our hearings until Tuesday morning at 10 o'clock.

If it is agreeable to continue our hearings at 10 o'clock Tuesday, I would suggest that the committee would like to hear as their first witness the official from the schools of the District.

Mr. BATES. I had hoped that I would be here to hear the testimony on schools, because I think it is by far the department of the city which accounts for a significant portion of total expenditures.

Senator CAIN. I would suggest that with the approval of the Commissioners we could very easily hear on Tuesday morning from the official of the library and begin with the engineering division.

Mr. MASON. We can have the library, rent control, and purchasing

office.

Tu