Senator CAIN. If, by way of argument, your recreational operations took over those facilities, would it be your intention to use them on the payment of a fee?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I would say this: That many of those facilities are a special service and should be paid for.

Mr. BATES. Such as what?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. By the public, it is a special service.
Senator CAIN. Such as boating and the like?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. And swimming pools for adults, for the most part, there ought to be a fee because it is an expensive operation. We believe there should be a combination fee and free policy, particularly for the youth and adults.

Senator CAIN. I take it you have made two points: No. 1 is, if you had your own way administratively, would include within your own operation these outside operations now under GSI, and you are about to point out that the law under which you operated had that intention in mind.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Mr. BATES. You think the law had the intention of turning over Federal property to the District for recreational purposes?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes, Mr. Bates, for the reason that the appropriation for the Office of National Capital Parks within the District comes from the District Commissioners out of the tax funds. The Superintendent of Parks is a member of our Board. They operate under the National Park Service of the Department of the Interior.

Mr. BATES. You mean the funds for the maintenance of those parks comes out of District funds?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Out of National Capital Parks in the District except those facilities that Government Services operate, which they maintain. However, there are major repairs or improvements occasionally that have to be made by the Office of National Capital Parks. I am thinking particularly of swimming pools.

Mr. BATES. On that, is the National Capital Parks municipal or Federal?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. It is Federal, but it receives its funds from the District for primarily District park areas.

Mr. BATES. And do I understand that they have authority to allocate part of their expenses to the District to be assumed by the District? Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes; they can permit us to operate many of these facilities.

Mr. BATES. And for improvements in the parks?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. On park property. There are some different property classifications. Some are what we call national in character, and some are District park areas.

Mr. BATES. The question is one of ownership. Who has the title? Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Title is in the Federal Government.

Mr. BATES. So, there is not any dual ownership, is there?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. No; but many of the park lands are being bought out of the District funds.

Mr. BATES. If that is so, the District acquires title in the first instance and turns it over to the Federal Government.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. No; the title never originates in the District, because the Planning Commission buys the land, and they assign it to the National Capital Parks.

Mr. BATES. Is the National Planning Commission a District commission?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. It receives its funds from the District, but it operates independently.

Mr. BATES. Who appoints the members?

Commissioner YOUNG. They are appointed by the President.
Mr. BATES. Then they acquire land from District funds.

Commissioner YOUNG. We pay for it, and the title goes to the United

States.

Mr. BATES. It goes to the United States, although you pay for it. Commissioner YOUNG. That is right.

Mr. BATES. That is a strange set-up. In other words, the thought that you want to leave with us is that Congress is to blame. I guess they are, if that is so; that is a very peculiar situation. I wonder how many times that has happened. I wish you would give us a schedule of all those properties that have been purchased by the money of the District and the title of which has gone to the Federal Government. I have known of cases where communities have purchased land. I have myself done so, one particular case where we paid a half million dollars for land, and I turned it over to the National Government for a national historic monument; that is where the way was clear, and it was well understood that is the purpose for which the property was going to be used. Maybe the same principle applies here. I would like to have a schedule of all those lands.

Commissioner YOUNG. I think it would be better if the budget furnishes those figures-our budget officer.

Mr. BATES. I would be interested to know that. But I am interested in the way those activities are carried on in properties that were acquired by the Planning Commission.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. By the Planning Commission.

Mr. BATES. And paid for by District funds.

Senator CAIN. If you have a reference to that, I think that would tie that up in rather a neat package, and we would know where we are going.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. (reading from Public Law 524):

The Board shall have power and authority to adopt, conduct, direct, or cause to be conducted or directed, under its supervision, a comprehensive program of public recreation which shall include the operation and direction of games, sports, arts and crafts, hobby shops, music, drama, speech, nursery play, dancing, lectures, form for informal discussion, and such other physical, social, mental, and creative opportunities for leisure-time recreation centers, playgrounds, athletic fields, playfields, tennis courts, baseball diamonds, swimming pools, beaches, golf courses, community centers, and social centers in schools, parks, or other publicity owned buildings, as well as other recreational facilities which may be agreed upon between the Board and the agencies having jurisdiction over such facilities. The public properties utilized by the Board for the above purposes shall include those designated by the National Capital Park and Planning Commission, in accordance with a comprehensive plan— as previously referred to

as suitable and desirable units of the District of Columbia recreation system.

Senator CAIN. Now, that remains, then, a very open question, as I understand what you read, that these things shall be done as the Board

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. It does not force them to do it.

Senator CAIN. It is purely enabling in character, and an obvious question comes to mind as to what planning and designing the Board has done with reference to taking over the facilities or attempting so to do with GSI.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We have a comprehensive file showing our efforts to operate these facilities. I submitted copies to the Senate Civil Service Committee at the recent hearings.

Commissioner MASON. We have all gone to court.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We have made a very aggressive effort to have those facilities made available to us.

Senator CAIN. Without any prejudice to anybody, you, just for a minute, reflect on why it has not been accomplished.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. First of all, our law stated that we had to recognize existing contracts that were in effect when we came into being.

Simultaneously, or about a month before the agency was created, a new contract was let between the Government Services and the Department of Interior for the previous operation referred to. They have been tied up in a 5-year contract until last year. As soon as we learned that the previous contract, supposedly created in 1942, was 1941, we immediately contacted the Department of Interior. After a series of conferences with them and the District Commissioners we were unsuccessful in securing the use of these facilities. As a result, a new contract was entered into with Government Services, Inc.

Mr. SMITH. Well, is not the real truth about the thing the same old story that no bureau is ever willing to give up any part of its jurisdiction over anything, if they can help it?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That was not the intent of the law, because they agreed to this act, the same as the other agencies that gave up this responsibility in 1942.

Senator CAIN. I would make a suggestion, following the law, as you interpret that law, that you or your associates prepare a piece of legislation for the consideration by this committee, which would accomplish the intent of the law, and after we get that and study it, in cooperation with you, then make a decision which, obviously, should not even be considered at this time.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. May I just say that in the light of that, there is one part of this thing the Commissioners now have before them, a request of our Board to prepare legislation for the immediate turning over of the swimming pools to the District, because those swimming pools are in our recreation plan and, for the most part, are on our school properties.

Senator CAIN. Probably other facilities are likewise within your intended plan of operation in the future.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We intend to make them available.

Mr. BATES. You say the swimming pools are in some cases on school properties?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right. You have school property and recreation property on the same unit. When some of the pools were constructed, the jurisdictional objects were changed when PWA or CWA appropriations were made.

Mr. BATES. Of course, I would suggest that we also have a representative of the Department of Interior here. I know some of them personally who are outstanding public servants.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Mr. BATES. And their interests are Nation-wide, in the development of the recreational facilities in the national parks of the country, but whether or not they should go down into the details of recreational facilities of a community on a community basis is another thing. I think we ought to explore that fully.

Senator CAIN. There is no prejudice intended on my part. What I would like, in connection with an intended piece of legislation, is a memorandum advising us of what your cost structure would be if these facilities were made available.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes.

Senator CAIN. What would it do to your current 1948 request? Mr. BATES. And also stop the overlapping Federal expenditures in what we might call administrative costs.

Senator CAIN. I think what Mr. Bates and I intend jointly to say is that we are sympathetic toward a full discussion of this problem without prejudging the problem at the moment.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I think that is the way we have been approaching this thing from the beginning. We have no criticism against Government Services, because they have done a good job and have been most cooperative with us.

Senator CAIN. They run a good service, but there is an obvious duplication, and either they should run more than they are or you should run what they are presently operating.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We have an agreement with Government. Services, whereby we operate the pools in the morning for free swimming and free instruction. After we remove our personnel, the pools are left open for public use and operated by Government Services with a fee. But they have made every effort to cooperate with us on that basis. The pool program is right in the middle of our year-long recreation program for all other activities.

Mr. SMITH. May I ask: Is that on the same day at the same pool, the same swimming pool, that you would have two sets of Government employees, one employed by you and one employed by the Interior Department operating the same pool during the same day?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. The Interior Department does not staff those pools; the Government Services does it as a private operation.

Mr. SMITH. There are two distinct sets of employees who operate. at those pools on the same day.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Senator CAIN. You can swim in the morning for nothing and in the afternoon it costs you to take a swim?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Mr. BATES. Who supervises the swimming pool, say, in the morning when you

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We have a joint supervision. Government Services, Inc., has a pool manager who is in charge of a pool, or the technical operation more. Our lifeguard and our swimming instructor come on at 9 o'clock. From 9 to 10 we have swimming instruction and lifesaving instruction. From about 10:30 to 11:30 we have free swimming.

Mr. BATES. From 12, say, to 5

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Six or seven o'clock.

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Mr. BATES. From 12 to 6 or 7, does the GSI have their swimming instructors?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes; our staffs have nothing to do with the operation after 12 o'clock noon.

Mr. BATES. In other words, what is actually done is that you take your staff out and they bring their staff in.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is about right.

Senator CAIN. One is purely a commercial venture, and the other is a recreational venture.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I do not like to call it commercial, because it is a nonprofit corporation.

Mr. BATES. It is nonprofit?

Mr. Demaray is the head of that?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. He is the president of Government Services, Inc.

Mr. BATES. I have known Mr. Demaray for 25 years, and I have had many official associations with him, and I think he is a very good man; but, as Mr. Smith has said, no matter whether it is the National Parks, the Department of Interior, the War Department, the Navy Department, it has been our experience that whenever they get hold of anything they just hate to let it go; it may be that through some considerations, such as the chairman has suggested, of getting you folks together, we can work out some program that will stop this overlapping and better coordination will be gotten in your work. Mr CHRISTIANSEN. We believe we can render a greater service because that is our responsibility; it is not secondary with us; it is our main responsibility.

Senator CAIN. You are entitled to have the problems considered. Proceed, please.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Commissioner MASON. Mr. Chairman, may I make the observation that the main work of GSI is in restaurants, and that they have isolated restaurants out of the District, and make up the deficit out of these facilities.

Senator CAIN. That may be very true, but I think we listened to figures which indicated that only a hundred-odd thousand dollars had been made over a period of approximately 20 years.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. According to their statistics.

Commissioner MASON. But that accounts for credit for losses on other operations.

Mr. BATES. When you say "out of the District" do you mean they operate all over the country?

Commissioner MASON. At the Pentagon; out in the canals.

Mr. BATES. It is a Nation-wide service.

Senator CAIN. I think they would be as interested as you and we are in discussing this problem.

Mr. BATES. Yes. We would like to have it discussed. I do not think we would want to criticize the National Park Service, because I think most of us are very familiar with the character of work they do all over the country, and it is on a very high level.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Mr. BATES. But as the Commissioner said here, whether or not they are utilizing properties within the District, and therefrom deriving