Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. It will vary according to the building that is used. Ordinarily it will run from about $3 to $5 a night. Senator CAIN. Let me ask a question without prejudice. Money being precious, whether it is large or small, has the thought occurred to you that in those instances the operations should be always self-supporting? That the group using the building should pay for that? Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I would like to explain that.

Senator CAIN. The group using the building should pay for the service rendered.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We make an attempt to familiarize the citizen and civic groups of the time that the building is open for regular activities. We also are familiar with the time when the night schools are open. Thus, we attempt to schedule those citizens' meetings on the same nights that the buildings are regularly open, so there would not be those additional charges over and above regular operation. There are some cases, of course, where we have to pay for that time where they cannot get those nights when the school is open or when there is not a night school in operation, or where the building is not in operation.

Senator CAIN. Before you move, your budgets are approximately trimmed in the 5 years of your consolidated jurisdiction. I wonder if you would express an opinion as to what percentage of the service you would like to render to the District, if you had everything that you are now asking for.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is a good question, because that ties in with the attempt of the Commissioners in trying to give a total view of all District needs here on community services.

We prepared a 6-year program at the request of the District Commissioners. If conditions were ideal and we had all the money that was needed in that 6-year program, we would need approximately $4,300,000 for capital outlay alone. This would involve construction of swimming pools, field houses, gymnasiums, wading pools, grading and fill, and lighting of many of our areas. The operating expense would go up to approximately $1,700,000 in that 6-year span.

Senator CAIN. Well, that rather implies that up until 1942 your over-all operation in the field of recreation had been catch-as-catch can, and nobody paid attention, very much attention, to it as an approximation of a science one way or the other.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I would not say that no one was, but because of the division of responsibility and mixed jurisdictions, it was difficult to meet the problems at that time.

Senator CAIN. I am not being critical, because that was a condition that pertained generally throughout America.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Then, there was a tremendous increase of population, as Commissioner Young referred to, since 1941, or from 660,000 to 938,000 in 6 years. When critical conditions develop it points up the deficiencies in community service.

Senator CAIN. A large percentage of that increase being represented obviously in children.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Senator CAIN. One other question before you turn to the next item. Do you feel that you are getting a full use through the school board of facilities at night, namely, basements in which children can skate, and gymnasiums and swimming pools, and so forth?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I think we are very fortunate here, Mr. Chair man, in having a school board that is community-minded to the extent that they permit us almost full use of school facilities for community and recreation use. Of course, many of the facilities that we utilize are substandard. In other words, we use facilities that we try to adapt to the best of our ability. We cannot always render maximum service because of the design of the facility. But there is not any question of trying to educate the Board of Education to the fact that it is necessary to provide the facilities in the schools. That is not true in many other cities. Many school boards in other cities are reluctant to permit the use of facilities beyond 3 o'clock in the afternoon, but it is not true here.

Senator CAIN. That is why I asked the question.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We have very excellent working relations with the school board.

Mr. BATES. Before you proceed with this tabulation of comparison of expenditures in these other cities that we are trying to make some analysis of, we have a figure here in the District of Columbia that expenditures of 1945 were $2,335,000 for recreation.

Now, in this set-up of these classifications by the Bureau of the Census, what do you think they had in mind, having your thoughts here where you say that your expenditures, say, in 1947, are $875,000, when these records here show that in 1945 there was $2,335,000 spent on recreational facilities?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I am very much interested in that release in the paper the other day because I do not know on what basis they made those estimates. I am of the opinion that they included the zoo and the National Capital parks for police protection, landscaping, and all types of service which goes into that big figure.

Mr. BATES. Well, of course, the same relative factors must be taken into consideration in the other 13 cities, as well.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is probably true.

Mr. BATES. We also find here that the distribution of the tax dollar, so to speak, was 4.7-that is $4.70-out of every hundred, and the average for these other 13 cities was only $3 in 1945.

Now, the per capita expenditure, unfortunately, we have not got it here for 1945 for all the other cities because of the difficulties in ascertaining the population in 1945-but we have it for 1941-that is before you took office; this set-up was created in 1942.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes.

Mr. BATES. The figures of 1941 show a per capita cost for recreation of $2.41 in the District, and the average of $2.01 in the other cities. We have other figures here for 1941 which are meaningless for the District in view of the 1945 figure that I already referred to, but I have another set of figures here which has considerable bearing on that of recreation, and that is on crime within the District; that all recreational activity is created for the purpose of trying to obviate, in part at least, although I believe that most of your crime is above what we call the school age.

Now, we find in 1945 that the number of offenses per 10,000 population-I am only reading this to you for your own information to show you the real job ahead of you, along with other authorities in the city dealing with children, school authorities and everyone elsethat the number of offenses per 10,000 population, and those offenses

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. It will vary according to the building that is used. Ordinarily it will run from about $3 to $5 a night.

Senator CAIN. Let me ask a question without prejudice. Money being precious, whether it is large or small, has the thought occurred to you that in those instances the operations should be always self-supporting? That the group using the building should pay for that? Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I would like to explain that.

Senator CAIN. The group using the building should pay for the service rendered.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We make an attempt to familiarize the citizen and civic groups of the time that the building is open for regular activities. We also are familiar with the time when the night schools are open. Thus, we attempt to schedule those citizens' meetings on the same nights that the buildings are regularly open, so there would not be those additional charges over and above regular operation. There are some cases, of course, where we have to pay for that time where they cannot get those nights when the school is open or when there is not a night school in operation, or where the building is not in operation.

Senator CAIN. Before you move, your budgets are approximately trimmed in the 5 years of your consolidated jurisdiction. I wonder! if you would express an opinion as to what percentage of the service you would like to render to the District, if you had everything that you are now asking for.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is a good question, because that ties in with the attempt of the Commissioners in trying to give a total view of all District needs here on community services.

We prepared a 6-year program at the request of the District Commissioners. If conditions were ideal and we had all the money that was needed in that 6-year program, we would need approximately $4,300,000 for capital outlay alone. This would involve construction of swimming pools, field houses, gymnasiums, wading pools, grading and fill, and lighting of many of our areas. The operating expense would go up to approximately $1,700,000 in that 6-year span.

Senator CAIN. Well, that rather implies that up until 1942 your over-all operation in the field of recreation had been catch-as-catch can, and nobody paid attention, very much attention, to it as an approximation of a science one way or the other.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I would not say that no one was, but because of the division of responsibility and mixed jurisdictions, it was difficult to meet the problems at that time.

Senator CAIN. I am not being critical, because that was a condition. that pertained generally throughout America.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Then, there was a tremendous increase of population, as Commissioner Young referred to, since 1941, or from 660,000 to 938,000 in 6 years. When critical conditions develop it points up the deficiencies in community service.

Senator CAIN. A large percentage of that increase being represented obviously in children.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Senator CAIN. One other question before you turn to the next item. Do you feel that you are getting a full use through the school board of facilities at night, namely, basements in which children can skate, and gymnasiums and swimming pools, and so forth?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I think we are very fortunate here, Mr. Chairman, in having a school board that is community-minded to the extent that they permit us almost full use of school facilities for community and recreation use. Of course, many of the facilities that we utilize are substandard. In other words, we use facilities that we try to adapt to the best of our ability. We cannot always render maximum service because of the design of the facility. But there is not any question of trying to educate the Board of Education to the fact that it is necessary to provide the facilities in the schools. That is not true in many other cities. Many school boards in other cities are reluctant to permit the use of facilities beyond 3 o'clock in the afternoon, but it is not true here.

Senator CAIN. That is why I asked the question.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We have very excellent working relations with the school board.

Mr. BATES. Before you proceed with this tabulation of comparison of expenditures in these other cities that we are trying to make some analysis of, we have a figure here in the District of Columbia that expenditures of 1945 were $2,335,000 for recreation. .

Now, in this set-up of these classifications by the Bureau of the Census, what do you think they had in mind, having your thoughts here where you say that your expenditures, say, in 1947, are $875,000, when these records here show that in 1945 there was $2,335,000 spent on recreational facilities?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I am very much interested in that release in the paper the other day because I do not know on what basis they made those estimates. I am of the opinion that they included the zoo and the National Capital parks for police protection, landscaping, and all types of service which goes into that big figure.

Mr. BATES. Well, of course, the same relative factors must be taken into consideration in the other 13 cities, as well.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is probably true.

Mr. BATES. We also find here that the distribution of the tax dollar, so to speak, was 4.7-that is $4.70-out of every hundred, and the average for these other 13 cities was only $3 in 1945.

Now, the per capita expenditure, unfortunately, we have not got it here for 1945 for all the other cities because of the difficulties in ascertaining the population in 1945-but we have it for 1941-that is before you took office; this set-up was created in 1942.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes.

Mr. BATES. The figures of 1941 show a per capita cost for recreation of $2.41 in the District, and the average of $2.01 in the other cities. We have other figures here for 1941 which are meaningless for the District in view of the 1945 figure that I already referred to, but I have another set of figures here which has considerable bearing on that of recreation, and that is on crime within the District; that all recreational activity is created for the purpose of trying to obviate, in part at least, although I believe that most of your crime is above what we call the school age.

Now, we find in 1945 that the number of offenses per 10,000 population-I am only reading this to you for your own information to show you the real job ahead of you, along with other authorities in the city dealing with children, school authorities and everyone elsethat the number of offenses per 10,000 population, and those offenses

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. It will vary according to the building that is used. Ordinarily it will run from about $3 to $5 a night.

Senator CAIN. Let me ask a question without prejudice. Money being precious, whether it is large or small, has the thought occurred to you that in those instances the operations should be always self-supporting? That the group using the building should pay for that? Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I would like to explain that.

Senator CAIN. The group using the building should pay for the service rendered.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We make an attempt to familiarize the citizen and civic groups of the time that the building is open for regular activities. We also are familiar with the time when the night schools are open. Thus, we attempt to schedule those citizens' meetings on the same nights that the buildings are regularly open, so there would not be those additional charges over and above regular operation. There are some cases, of course, where we have to pay for that time where they cannot get those nights when the school is open or when there is not a night school in operation, or where the building is not in operation.

Senator CAIN. Before you move, your budgets are approximately trimmed in the 5 years of your consolidated jurisdiction. I wonder if you would express an opinion as to what percentage of the service you would like to render to the District, if you had everything that you are now asking for.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is a good question, because that ties in with the attempt of the Commissioners in trying to give a total view of all District needs here on community services.

We prepared a 6-year program at the request of the District Commissioners. If conditions were ideal and we had all the money that was needed in that 6-year program, we would need approximately $4,300,000 for capital outlay alone. This would involve construction of swimming pools, field houses, gymnasiums, wading pools, grading and fill, and lighting of many of our areas. The operating expense would go up to approximately $1,700,000 in that 6-year span.

Senator CAIN. Well, that rather implies that up until 1942 your over-all operation in the field of recreation had been catch-as-catch can, and nobody paid attention, very much attention, to it as an approximation of a science one way or the other.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I would not say that no one was, but because of the division of responsibility and mixed jurisdictions, it was difficult to meet the problems at that time.

Senator CAIN. I am not being critical, because that was a condition that pertained generally throughout America.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Then, there was a tremendous increase of population, as Commissioner Young referred to, since 1941, or from 660,000 to 938,000 in 6 years. When critical conditions develop it points up the deficiencies in community service.

Senator CAIN. A large percentage of that increase being represented obviously in children.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Senator CAIN. One other question before you turn to the next item. Do you feel that you are getting a full use through the school board. of facilities at night, namely, basements in which children can skate, and gymnasiums and swimming pools, and so forth?