I will have to support what the witness is saying. I do not believe the athletic fund would pay the cost of extra compensation for coaches. Senator CAIN. Let me ask this question: Dramatics is probably of prime interest within your public-school system, is it not? Dr. CORNING. Yes, sir.

Senator CAIN. I imagine most of that rehearsal work is done either at night or in the late afternoon? I think it a fair question to ask, whether or not dramatic teachers are paid.

Mr. LEE. They are not.

Mr. LUND. This was presented to Dr. Corning and to the Board of Education, and it was recognized that we should receive compensation. However, they thought that we should be compensated in time off. This was brought up among the men physical-education teachers. These points were discussed, why the time-off plan would not work, and also why the time-off plan would cost the taxpayers

more money.

I should say first, before we go into these figures, that we would like to see a plan adopted to pay the head coach-football, basketball, and track-an additional salary of $500 over and above his teaching salary, and to the assistant coaches of those sports an additional salary of $400, and for coaches of the minor sports, which are cross country, tennis, golf, and swimming, $150.

In using the coaches' recommendation for salaries, the maximum cost-if three men were used in football, two in basketball, two in baseball, two in track, two in cross country, two in tennis, one in golf, and one in swimming-would be $57,000. The minimum cost would be $37,800, based on two men in football and two men in basketball, and reducing the others to one man each.

On the time-off plan, in which you have to use teachers' salaries, and using four-fifths of the salaries after school to coach teams, this would amount to the maximum of $142,560, with a minimum cost of $95,040, which is almost three times as much money as would be spent in using the taxpayers' money of the appropriated funds for coaching the teams after school rather than paying the coaches the extra money that we are asking.

Senator CAIN. Certainly I am not an authority on this subject. From what little I have thought about it, I would not approve of taking time off, which is a drain against the general fund operation. And, number two, we would have to give serious consideration if the coaches were to be paid on the side, from so building up your athletic fund in your approach to the gate that it would carry itself. I do not know what thinking has been given to that, although I dare say the Board of Education has gone into it rather thoroughly and they will make certain contributions before the hearings are closed.

Mr. BATES. There is a thought in there about this extracurricular work that both the high school and elementary teachers have spoken about at some length. The witness is speaking about the same thing; it is extracurricular work. It is not mandatory in this case, but it is in the preparation of the studies, in the examination of lessons, marking up of examinations, and so on. That is required work.

We would like to have a little explanation as to how one ties in with the other. Are the same educational requirements necessary

for a physical-education instructor in the school system as the teacher in the classroom?

Dr. CORNING. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. Why is that necessary? For instance, we have excellent schools in physical education in Massachusetts. We have a number of them. Why is it necessary to have a master's degree in physical education?

Dr. CORNING. It is not necessary to have a master's degree, but it is very desirable.

Mr. BATES. To what degree?

Dr. CORNING. Physical education is definitely instruction, and the degree is necessary in the field of teaching that particular subject as it is in any other subject. The degree is also necessary because the men and women in this department have to have very thorough understanding of the physical body, the training of that body, and of corrective measures needed where deficiencies exist. The field is complicated and very technical. The degree is very necessary, we feel.

Mr. LUND. Of course, you have your teaching of health and safety, which is definitely required. You would have to have a well-qualified teacher. You could not just take any former star athlete and have him go ahead and teach physical education.

Mr. BATES. The unfortunate part of it is that they have all received in the various school systems just such teachers as you mention here, such as these stars, who do not possess the all-round qualifications of physical education. I well recall some years ago-I think 1928when I brought my own school committee to West Point to make a complete study of the physical-education system there, which is perhaps the best of any institution in the country, if not the world. You have the last word there, and you can see what they can do with a boy. Of course, they have selected boys, you can be sure. You can see what they do with a boy in 3 months. Probably you cannot do so in public high school, but it shows what can be done with very capable instructors.

I am inclined to think we are getting too far away from physical instruction and devoting too much time to sports.

Dr. CORNING. If any part of it did not require the college degree, it would be the coaching. Certainly these men who are teaching health and physical education and safety are teaching a subject which requires just as much training and just as much technical skill as the teaching of any other subject.

I think the custom in the years that you have mentioned was to take star athletes, regardless of training, and make them coaches. Mr. BATES. From the standpoint of sports, they are excellent within a limited field. But we have been forgetting the basic question involved, of physical preparation of the child.

Dr. CORNING. I think every one of these men recognizes his basic function is to teach health and physical education and safety.

Senator CAIN. Did I understand you to say that your recommendation was $500 per season for the major sports?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator CAIN. I notice that our proposal here for senior high school teachers of class 3B is $4,700. We add $500 to that for football;

that is $5,200. Why should we not add another $500 or $1,000, assuming that the same man is so talented, as often happens, that he is perfectly qualified to coach three major sports, and if we added another $1,000, it would be $6,200? I merely suggest that a lot of full professors in good American universities make less; not that that is a valid contribution, but I take it that is a fact.

Mr. LEE. Probably.

Senator CAIN. There seems to be a trend in America that a lot of football coaches, for example, are full members of the faculty. They have many other talents, and they teach during the day and coach the football team, also.

Mr. BATES. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get on with the witI must leave, and I hope we will be able to close this meeting this afternoon.

ness.

Dr. CORNING. I would like very much to have a few minutes. Mr. BATES. We can give you another time this afternoon, if you wish.

Senator CAIN. He would like to have 10 minutes, which assumes, Mr. Bates, that he has something very important to say in those 10 minutes.

Mr. LUND. Might I say in closing, that if they did give us the time off it would mean that if one or two men were coaching football, for instance, and you had four men in your department, it would mean that two men not coaching would have to teach all of the classes, which would be more than doubling the load they have now.

Senator CAIN. What it would more probably result in would be the addition of personnel to make the time off possible.

Mr. LUND. That, of course, would mean more money again. Senator CAIN. We agree, I think, that there is a basic problem here. We do not know what the answer is. We will give it a lot of thought before we are through.

Thank you for coming; we are much obliged to you.

Mr. Arthur C. Katims, chairman of the Citizens Committee on Teachers Salaries, is next. Will you take the chair, please.

STATEMENT OF ARTHUR C. KATIMS, CHAIRMAN, CITIZENS COMMITTEE ON TEACHERS' SALARIES, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. KATIMS. The Citizens Committee on Teachers' Salaries was formed about 2 weeks ago pursuant to a letter sent out by Mrs. Gifford Pinchot and Dr. Frederick E. Reissig. Mrs. Pinchot is a prominent citizen of Washington who is interested in civic affairs, and Dr. Reissig, I believe, is president of the Federation of Churches in the District of Columbia.

I attended that meeting as a representative of the District Businessmen's Association. It was out of my attendance and so-called enthusiasm that I was elected chairman of this committee.

Senator CAIN. Two weeks ago?

Mr. KATIMS. Yes. The purpose of that committee was to advise the people of the city of Washington of this pending bill, and if necessary to get their support for it if they did not already support it. Unfortunately, I must admit that our plans to become thoroughly organized have been scotched by the early hearing on this bill. How

ever, I can say there are approximately 50 people who are in agreement with the purposes of this committee, which was to foster the passing of this bill.

I am also here on behalf of the Federation of Businessmen's Association, an association consisting of approximately 5,000 constituent members, people who are residents and do business in the District of Columbia.

I was here when these hearings started on Thursday, and I have been here ever since they have been going on. I have been quite aware of all statistics that have been presented here by the Board of Education, by the District Commissioners, and even by the hearers, you gentlemen. Mr. BATES. Where did you get my statistics?

Mr. KATIMS. Sitting here and listening to you.

I do not have any statistics. If you will bear with me and try to dismiss these confusing numbers from your minds and look at this problem from the point of view which I want to discuss it, you will agree with me that statistics are not important.

I want to discuss it from the point of view of schools and their effect on children.

My primary interest, even though I am chairman of one committee and representative of another organization, is the fact that I am a parent and I have a child in school.

The first contact that an infant has, or a child has, with our complicated system of living in this culture, is the public school. Until a child is 5 years old, it is usually looked after by its parents and only has been confronted with the problems of the home and the neighborhood. But when a child goes to school, it is becoming a part of a very complicated social system.

The child has problems when it gets into school. It has to adjust to a social system which is strange to it. The child is only approximately, on the average, 5 years old.

No doubt there are many people today 25 years or 50 years old who have not been very well adapted to our tremendously complicated culture that we have in this country.

My point is that when a child gets into a public school, it has to have proper supervision; it has to have competent teachers, teachers who can understand the position of the child in relation to its home life and to its social life. If we have a school system which is not able to retain its teachers because of failure to pay these teachers a decent living salary, then as parents we are sending our children to schools that are not going to be able to equip that child for adjusting to our complicated culture.

The Board of Education by its bill is endeavoring, as I see it, to supply our schools with teachers who are well trained and who will be satisfied in their jobs and stay in school and become acquainted with the children and help them grow up to face our culture as it is today.

That is a part of the game, bringing these children up and teaching them in the school.

There is something else to consider, what these children are like when they get out of school. I have heard so much about juvenile delinquency in the last 3 or 4 years that I hesitate to say that it is due to the impact of the war alone. I think it is due to the fact that the

children have not had proper supervision in school. I agree that juvenile problems probably do arise in the home. But, fortunately, the schools have been able to help children to adjust to our culture where the homes have failed to do so.

I was surprised that the Commissioners did not go on record as being in favor of this bill. I am a resident of the District of Columbia. I have lived here since 1927. I have gone through the schools here.

Senator CAIN. I can tell you the difference, Mr. Witness. Before they can go in favor of this bill, they have to do something that time has permitted you to do; they have to know what its effect is going to be on all other services in demand. You are speaking in theory, which we can all understand and sympathize with and appreciate, but you are not prepared to bear any responsibility for the cost of this legislation. Mr. Bates and I will not expect an answer from a responsible witness such as the Commissioner until they are prepared to prove what they are talking about.

Mr. KATIMS. I will take issue with you, sir. I am prepared to pay any tax you levy against me, to provide the schools here with competent teachers.

Senator CAIN. That is your single tax, Mr. Witness, and we are not going to labor the point. The Commissioners are responsible for the taxes to be imposed to provide all services, and what a tremendous difference there is in that.

Mr. KATIMS. As I understand it, primarily this is a bill to set a scale of wages for the teachers in the schools; is it not? It is not a bill for an appropriation to pay those teachers?"

Mr. BATES. One follows the other.

Mr. KATIMS. This is one bill that sets a scale, sets a standard; is that not correct?

Senator CAIN. Entirely correct.

Mr. KATIMS. As far as this bill is concerned, you would be going ahead of yourself if you appropriated money now to pay that standard. Senator CAIN. I think we are getting into the realm of finance now, and we had better stay right with the bill.

Mr. KATIMS. Unless this bill is considered an appropriation bill, too, I do not think I should have to explain how you are going to get the money. But I do have the answer.

The Federation of Businessmen's Associations went on record here with reference to the appropriation bills for the District of Columbia. In their report to the Appropriations Committee they recommended the income tax plan known as the Philadelphia plan.

There is nothing wrong with that Philadelphia plan. The only objection I can see to it, from the point of view of Congress passing it, is the fact that a lot of States might lose a lot of income-tax payers. As a resident of the District of Columbia, who cannot vote, I am at a disadvantage to come to Congress and ask them to excuse their residents from paying taxes in the District of Columbia, because their States want the taxes.

Mr. BATES. That is a wage tax, of course, the Philadelphia tax. You have heard the testimony here this afternoon relative to the sales tax, which is somewhat treating the problem in reverse-you tax at the source instead of taxing after you get the money, and then attempt to buy.