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I will have to support what the witness is saying. I do not believe the athletic fund would pay the cost of extra compensation for coaches.

Senator Cain. Let me ask this question : Dramatics is probably of prime interest within your public school system, is it not?

Dr. CORNING. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. I imagine most of that rehearsal work is done either at night or in the late afternoon? I think it a fair question to ask, whether or not dramatic teachers are paid.

Mr. LEE. They are not. Mr. LUND. This was presented to Dr. Corning and to the Board of Education, and it was recognized that we should receive compensation. However, they thought that we should be compensated in time off. This was brought up among the men physical-education teachers. These points were discussed, why the time-off plan would not work, and also why the time-off plan would cost the taxpayers more money.

I should say first, before we go into these figures, that we would like to see a plan adopted to pay the head coach-football, basketball, and track—an additional salary of $500 over and above his teaching salary, and to the assistant coaches of those sports an additional salary of $400, and for coaches of the minor sports, which are cross country, tennis, golf, and swimming, $150.

In using the coaches' recommendation for salaries, the maximum cost—if three men were used in football, two in basketball, two in baseball, two in track, two in cross country, two in tennis, one in golf, and one in swimming-would be $57,000. The minimum cost would be $37,800, based on two men in football and two men in basketball, and reducing the others to one man each.

On the time-off plan, in which you have to use teachers' salaries, and using four-fifths of the salaries after school to coach teams, this would amount to the maximum of $142,560, with a minimum cost of $95,040, which is almost three times as much money as would be spent in using the taxpayers' money of the appropriated funds for coaching the teams after school rather than paying the coaches the extra money that we are asking.

Senator Cain. Certainly I am not an authority on this subject. From what little I have thought about it, I would not approve of taking time off, which is a drain against the general fund operation. And, number two, we would have to give serious consideration if the coaches were to be paid on the side, from so building up your athletic fund in your approach to the gate that it would carry itself. I do not know what thinking has been given to that, although I dare say the Board of Education has gone into it rather thoroughly and they will make certain contributions before the hearings are closed.

Mr. BATEs. There is a thought in there about this extracurricular work that both the high school and elementary teachers have spoken about at some length. The witness is speaking about the same thing; it is extracurricular work. It is not mandatory in this case, but it is in the preparation of the studies, in the examination of lessons, marking up of examinations, and so on. That is required work.

We would like to have a little explanation as to how one ties in with the other. Are the same educational requirements necessary

Dr. Corning. We would not support any such activity. We recog. nize that some of these men are experienced physical-education men who are not interested in coaching and may not be very skillful as coaches. The coaching is not only voluntary, but those positions are very much sought after. If a man asks to coach and is not given the opportunity to do so because somebody else gets it, we usually hear about that, too.

Mr. LEE. I-might say in addition, Senator, that the personnel in our school system has recourse by appeal to a board when they feel their rating‘is unfair. If the Superintendent does not give redress, they may come to the Board.

Senator Cain. Mr. Bates and I would be particularly distressed if we thought there was actual practice that gave substance to the witness' testimony.

Dr. CORNING. I would be very much distressed if there were any indication of that.

Senator Cain. Which is not to say that it has not happened. That is what you have a record for, in order to put down the things that people are thinking. There are assertions made by responsible persons. With this record there can be recourse sufficient to satisfy anybody's grievance in the future. So it is a valuable contribution.

Mr. LEE. I would like also for the record to show that the Board would not countenance any arbitrary action on the part of the school personnel in the rating procedure.

Mr. BATES. If you are to be compensated, why not out of the funds chat are created as a result of the game?

Mr. LUND. Some cities do that, sir.
Mr. BATES. I know, a great many do.
Mr. Lund. The report here shows that.

Senator Cain. I think the cities to which you referred in my State do it that way. So much money comes in at the gate, so much money goes out of those gate receipts for compensating officials.

Mr. BATES. Do you happen to know the sum total of the net receipts from those sources, say in the last fiscal year?

Mr. Lund. No, sir, I do not know that, offhand. I can get them. Mr. BATEs. Do you think they would be adequate to pay the coaches

. for this so-called extracurricular work?

Mr. LUND. No, sir; I do not believe so, because we do not charge enough admission for games.

Senator Cain. Is varsity football self-supporting?
Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. But the surplus from football goes to carry the deficits in a good many other sports! ?

Mr. LUND. Yes. Senator Cain. What is the net position at the end of the year for all varsity sports?

Mr. Lund. I do not recall the exact figures, but it is not very high. it is a matter of perhaps $2,000. It is due to the gate receipts being so low, charging 25 cents for students and 60 cents for adults. We could not support the coaches' pay, I do not believe.

Dr. CORNING. I would like to remind you, Congressman Bates, you requested from us a tabulation of various funds in the various schools. In that you will find the exact status of the athletic fund in the schools.

I will have to support what the witness is saying. I do not believe the athletic fund would pay the cost of extra compensation for coaches.

Senator Cain. Let me ask this question: Dramatics is probably of prime interest within your public-school system, is it not ?

Dr. CORNING. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. I imagine most of that rehearsal work is done either at night or in the late afternoon? I think it a fair question to ask, whether or not dramatic teachers are paid.

Mr. LEE. They are not. Mr. Lund. This was presented to Dr. Corning and to the Board of Education, and it was recognized that we should receive compensation. However, they thought that we should be compensated in time off. This was brought up among the men physical-education teachers. These points were discussed, why the time-off plan would not work, and also why the time-off plan would cost the taxpayers more money.

I should say first, before we go into these figures, that we would like to see a plan adopted to pay the head coach-football, basketball, and track—an additional salary of $500 over and above his teaching salary, and to the assistant coaches of those sports an additional salary of $100, and for coaches of the minor sports, which are cross country, tennis, golf, and swimming, $150.

In using the coaches' recommendation for salaries, the maximum cost—if three men were used in football, two in basketball, two in baseball, two in track, two in cross country, two in tennis, one in golf, and one in swimming—would be $57,000. The minimum cost would be $37,800, based on two men in football and two men in basketball, and reducing the others to one man each.

On the time-off plan, in which you have to use teachers' salaries, and using four-fifths of the salaries after school to coach teams, this would amount to the maximum of $142,560, with a minimum cost of $95,040, which is almost three times as much money as would be spent in using the taxpayers' money of the appropriated funds for coaching the teams after school rather than paying the coaches the extra money that we are asking.

Senator Cain. Certainly I am not an authority on this subject. From what little I have thought about it, I would not approve of taking time off, which is a drain against the general fund operation. And, number two, we would have to give serious consideration if the coaches were to be paid on the side, from so building up your athletic fund in your approach to the gate that it would carry itself. I do not know what thinking has been given to that, although I dare say the Board of Education has gone into it rather thoroughly and they will make certain contributions before the hearings are closed.

Mr. BATEs. There is a thought in there about this extracurricular work that both the high school and elementary teachers have spoken about at some length. The witness is speaking about the same thing; it is extracurricular work. It is not mandatory in this case, but it is in the preparation of the studies, in the examination of lessons, marking up of examinations, and so on. That is required work.

We would like to have a little explanation as to how one ties in with the other. Are the same educational requirements necessary

for a physical-education instructor in the school system as the teacher in the classroom?

Dr. CORNING. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. Why is that necessary ? For instance, we have excellent schools in physical education in Massachusetts. We have a number of them. Why is it necessary to have a master's degree in physical education ?

Dr. CORNING. It is not necessary to have a master's degree, but it is very desirable.

Mr. Bates. To what degree?

Dr. CORNING. Physical education is definitely instruction, and the degree is necessary in the field of teaching that particular subject as it is in any other subject. The degree is also necessary because the men and women in this department have to have very thorough understanding of the physical body, the training of that body, and of corrective measures needed where deficiencies exist. The field is complicated and very technical. The degree is very necessary, we feel.

Mr. LUND. Of course, you have your teaching of health and safety, which is definitely required. You would have to have a well-qualified teacher. You could not just take any former star athlete and have him

go ahead and teach physical education. Mr. Bates. The unfortunate part of it is that they have all received in the various school systems just such teachers as you mention here, such as these stars, who do not possess the all-round qualifications of physical education. I well recall some years ago I think 1928– when I brought my own school committee to West Point to make a complete study of the physical-education system there, which is perhaps the best of any institution in the country, if not the world. You have the last word there, and you can see what they can do with a boy. Of course, they have selected boys, you can be sure. You can see what they do with a boy in 3 months. Probably you cannot do so in public high school, but it shows what can be done with very capable instructors.

I am inclined to think we are getting too far away from physical instruction and devoting too much time to sports.

Dr. CORNING. If any part of it did not require the college degree, it would be the coaching. Certainly these men who are teaching health and physical education and safety are teaching a subject which requires just as much training and just as much technical skill as the teaching of any other subject.

I think the custom in the years that you have mentioned was to take star athletes, regardless of training, and make them coaches.

Mr. BATEs. From the standpoint of sports, they are excellent within a limited field. But we have been forgetting the basic question involved, of physical preparation of the child.

Dr. CORNING. I think every one of these men recognizes his basic function is to teach health and physical education and safety.

Senator Cain. Did I understand you to say that your recommendation was $500 per season for the major sports?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. I notice that our proposal here for senior high school teachers of class 3B is $1,700. We add $500 to that for football; that is $5,200. Why, should we not add another $500 or $1,000, assuming that the same man is so talented, as often happens, that he is perfectly qualified to coach three major sports, and if we added another $1,000, it would be $6,200! I merely suggest that a lot of full professors in good American universities make less; not that that is a valid contribution, but I take it that is a fact.

Mr. LEE. Probably.

Senator Cain. There seems to be a trend in America that a lot of football coaches, for example, are full members of the faculty. They have many other talents, and they teach during the day and coach the football team, also.

Mr. BATES. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get on with the witness. I must leave, and I hope we will be able to close this meeting this afternoon.

Dr. CORNING. I would like very much to have a few minutes. Mr. Bates. We can give you another time this afternoon, if you wish.

Senator Cain. He would like to have 10 minutes, which assumes, Mr. Bates, that he has something very important to say in those 10 minutes.

Mr. Lund. Might I say in closing, that if they did give us the time off it would mean that if one or two men were coaching football, for instance, and you had four men in your department, it would mean that two men not coaching would have to teach all of the classes, which would be more than doubling the load they have now.

Senator Cain. What it would more probably result in would be the addition of personnel to make the time off possible.

Mr. Lund. That, of course, would mean more money again.

Senator Cain. We agree, I think, that there is a basic problem here. We do not know what the answer is. We will give it a lot of thought before we are through.

Thank you for coming; we are much obliged to you.

Mr. Arthur C. Katims, chairman of the Citizens Committee on Teachers Salaries, is next. Will you take the chair, please.

STATEMENT OF ARTHUR C. KATIMS, CHAIRMAN, CITIZENS COMMITTEE ON TEACHERS' SALARIES, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. KATIMs. The Citizens Committee on Teachers' Salaries was formed about 2 weeks ago pursuant to a letter sent out by Mrs. Gifford Pinchot and Dr. Frederick E. Reissig. Mrs. Pinchot is a prominent citizen of Washington who is interested in civic affairs, and Dr. Reissig, I believe, is president of the Federation of Churches in the District of Columbia.

I attended that meeting as a representative of the District Businessmen's Association. It was out of my attendance and so-called enthusiasm that I was elected chairman of this committee.

Senator Cain. Two weeks ago?

Mr. Katims. Yes. The purpose of that committee was to advise the people of the city of Washington of this pending bill, and if necessary to get their support for it if they did not already support it. Unfortunately, I must admit that our plans to become thoroughly organized have been scotched by the early hearing on this bill. How

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