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Senator Cain. I wish you would not get into that Spokane business; it makes Tacoma look bad. We are both progressive cities, apparently,

Mr. Lund. I lived in Spokane for 1 year while I was in the service.

We have broken down the amount of pupils who participate in each sport in each school—that is, the 12 high schools that have varsity teams. We have found that 22,775 pupils participate per school in all sports during one school year. Multiplying by 12 makes a total of 273,000 pupils who participate in sports. This is approximate, from the poll that we made with the coaches. This involves approximately a million pupil-hours.

So it shows the tremendous amount of preparation and time we are spending with these boys.

Senator Cain. May I ask if a number of your physical-education teachers in the public-school system are there in the hope that they will develop their own talents and so on, so that they will go on to comparable coaching work of one kind or another in American universities and colleges? Or, to put the question the other way around, do most of your physical-education teachers make a profession of teaching in the public school system?

Mr. Lund. I think, sir, that most of the men are preparing to teach physical education. I do not believe that we have had but one or two that I know of, or three, that are planning to go into teaching in college.

Senator Cain. Their present endeavor is their life work?
Mr. LUND. Yes.

Mr. Bates. Probably the opportunities in colleges and universities are very limited, anyway, compared with the total number of teachers available in the secondary schools and high schools of the country.

Mr. LUND. Yes.

Mr. BATEs. How many physical-education instructors have you in the Washington schools?

Mr. LUND. We have 46.
Mr. Bates. What percentage of those are women?
Mr. Lund. This is men only.
Mr. BATES. How many women?
Mr. Lund. I do not know.
Mr. LEE. Approximately the same number.
Mr. Lund. There are 46 men physical-education instructors.

Senator Cain. You are speaking in support of the women as well as the men ?

Mr. LUND. No, sir; the men.

Mr. Bates. He is speaking particularly for this so-called extracurricular work.

Mr. Lund. Yes, sir. Washington, D. C. does not have any girls' program at all.

Mr. BATEs. So what you are speaking about is extra work that the men teachers have to do over and above what the women teachers have to do, or do do?

Mr. Lund. Over any teachers.
Mr. Bates. Physical-education teachers.
Mr. Lund. They are all included.

Mr. BATEs. Women teachers in physical education do not have this extracurricular work that you are speaking about, do they?

Mr. LUND. No, sir.
Mr. BATES. You are required to do it!
Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. The women mostly have gym classes, I dare say, during the course of the school day!

Mr. Lund. The same as we do, but the intramurals which we handle, and we do not ask any pay for that.

Mr. Bates. The intramurals take place during the late afternoon, after school hours?

Mr. LUND. Some are during school hours and some are after school. That is part of our teaching duties.

Mr. BATEs. Now let me ask you this question: At these games, they are open to the public; is the public charged an admission?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir. Mr. BATES. What becomes of the proceeds? Mr. Lund. The proceeds are deposited into the inter-high fund. We have an inter-high-school organization. That is controlled by Inter-High School Council, one representative from each school. The receipts are recorded. We have the treasurer, who happens to be the assistant principal of the high school. He accounts for all the money. From time to time they declare a dividend and they send back to each school a certain amount of money which they consider is a surplus.

Mr. BATEs. Does the school department have control over those funds, auditing, and so on?

Mr. Lund. The money goes back to each high school, and the principal places that, of course, into the general fund of the high school.

Dr. CORNING. And they are audited.

Senator Cain. Do you have physical-education teachers who do not coach these varsity sports?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. Is there a requirement that makes a physical-education teacher coach a sport if he does not want to?

Mr. Lund. Not in the rules; no, sir. But the principal asks a man to coach a team and he expects the man to coach the team. If he does not coach the team, he would be transferred. That has happened in

Senator Cain. Transferred to another school within the system? Mr. Lund. Yes. Or probably be reduced in his rating as being inefficient or not cooperating:

Senator Cain. I would like to stop there and ask the superintendent, without prejudice, because that is rather important, is there substance, Mr. Superintendent, to the witness' comment that because a man-I could foresee for a lot of reasons; say I am one of the very best physical-education teachers in the business, but because of obligations I have on the side, family and so on, I am in no position to coach. I would do a good job during the course of the day, and beyond that I will not go a step. Is there any reason for Mr. Bates and me to assume that that man's very reasonable attitude would result in a down-rating of efficiency?

Dr. CORNING. If it did, I would down-rate the official that did it, sir.

Senator Cain. In other words, it may happen in particular situations over which, or with which you are not familiar as the Superintendent of the system?

the past.

Dr. CORNING. We would not support any such activity. We recog. nize that some of these men are experienced physical-education men who are not interested in coaching and may not be very skillful as coaches. The coaching is not only voluntary, but those positions are very much sought after. If a man asks to coach and is not given the opportunity to do so because somebody else gets it, we usually hear about that, too.

Mr. LEE. I-might say in addition, Senator, that the personnel in our school system has recourse by appeal to a board when they feel their rating is unfair. If the Superintendent does not give redress, they may come to the Board.

Senator Cain. Mr. Bates and I would be particularly distressed if we thought there was actual practice that gave substance to the witness' testimony.

Dr. CORNING. I would be very much distressed if there were any indication of that.

Senator Cain. Which is not to say that it has not happened. That is what you have a record for, in order to put down the things that people are thinking. There are assertions made by responsible persons. With this record there can be recourse sufficient to satisfy anybody's grievance in the future. So it is a valuable contribution.

Mr. LEE. I would like also for the record to show that the Board would not countenance any arbitrary action on the part of the school personnel in the rating procedure.

Mr. Bates. If you are to be compensated, why not out of the funds chat are created as a result of the game?

Mr. LUND. Some cities do that, sir.
Mr. Bates. I know, a great many do.
Mr. Lund. The report here shows that.

Senator Cain. I think the cities to which you referred in my State do it that way. So mucir money comes in at the gate, so much money goes out of those gate receipts for compensating officials.

Mr. Bates. Do you happen to know the sum total of the net receipts from those sources, say in the last fiscal year?

Mr. LUND. No, sir, I do not know that, offhand. I can get them.

Mr. BATEs. Do you think they would be adequate to pay the coaches for this so-called extracurricular work?

Mr. Lund. No, sir; I do not believe so, because we do not charge enough admission for games.

Senator Cain. Is varsity football self-supporting?
Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator Caix. But the surplus from football goes to carry the deficits in a good many other sports?

Mr. LUND. Yes.

Senator Cain. What is the net position at the end of the year for all varsity sports?

Mr. Lund. I do not recall the exact figures, but it is not very high, it is a matter of perhaps $2,000. It is due to the gate receipts being so low, charging 25 cents for students and 60 cents for adults. We could not support the coaches' pay, I do not believe.

Dr. Corning. I would like to remind you, Congressman Bates, you requested from us a tabulation of various funds in the various schools. In that you will find the exact status of the athletic fund in the schools.

I will have to support what the witness is saying. I do not believe the athletic fund would pay the cost of extra compensation for coaches.

Senator Cain. Let me ask this question: Dramatics is probably of prime interest within your public school system, is it not?

Dr. CORNING. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. I imagine most of that rehearsal work is done either at night or in the late afternoon? I think it a fair question to ask, whether or not dramatic teachers are paid.

Mr. LEE. They are not. Mr. Lund. This was presented to Dr. Corning and to the Board of Education, and it was recognized that we should receive compensation. However, they thought that we should be compensated in time off. This was brought up among the men physical-education teachers. These points were discussed, why the time-off plan would not work, and also why the time-off plan would cost the taxpayers more money.

I should say first, before we go into these figures, that we would like to see a plan adopted to pay the head coach-football, basketball, and track—an additional salary of $500 over and above his teaching salary, and to the assistant coaches of those sports an additional salary of $400, and for coaches of the minor sports, which are cross country, tennis, golf, and swimming, $150.

In using the coaches recommendation for salaries, the maximum cost-if three men were used in football, two in basketball, two in baseball, two in track, two in cross country, two in tennis, one in golf, and one in swimming-would be $57,000. The minimum cost would be $37,800, based on two men in football and two men in basketball, and reducing the others to one man each.

On the time-off plan, in which you have to use teachers' salaries, and using four-fifths of the salaries after school to coach teams, this would amount to the maximum of $142,560, with a minimum cost of $95,040, which is almost three times as much money as would be spent in using the taxpayers' money of the appropriated funds for coaching the teams after school rather than paying the coaches the extra money that we are asking.

Senator Cain. Certainly I am not an authority on this subject. From what little I have thought about it, I would not approve of taking time off, which is a drain against the general fund operation. And, number two, we would have to give serious consideration if the coaches were to be paid on the side, from so building up your athletic fund in your approach to the gate that it would carry itself. I do not know what thinking has been given to that, although I dare say the Board of Education has gone into it rather thoroughly and they will make certain contributions before the hearings are closed.

Mr. Bates. There is a thought in there about this extracurricular work that both the high school and elementary teachers have spoken about at some length. The witness is speaking about the same thing; it is extracurricular work. It is not mandatory in this case, but

. it is in the preparation of the studies, in the examination of lessons, marking up of examinations, and so on. That is required work.

We would like to have a little explanation as to how one ties in with the other. Are the same educational requirements necessary

sons.

Dr. CORNING. We would not support any such activity. We recog. nize that some of these men are experienced physical-education men who are not interested in coaching and may not be very skillful as coaches. The coaching is not only voluntary, but those positions are very much sought after. If a man asks to coach and is not given the opportunity to do so because somebody else gets it, we usually hear about that, too.

Mr. LEE. I-might say in addition, Senator, that the personnel in our school system has recourse by appeal to a board when they feel their rating is unfair. If the Superintendent does not give redress, they may come to the Board.

Senator Cain. Mr. Bates and I would be particularly distressed if we thought there was actual practice that gave substance to the witness' testimony.

Dr. CORNING. I would be very much distressed if there were any indication of that.

Senator Cain. Which is not to say that it has not happened. That is what you have a record for, in order to put down the things that people are thinking. There are assertions made by responsible per

With this record there can be recourse sufficient to satisfy anybody's grievance in the future. So it is a valuable contribution.

Mr. LEE. I would like also for the record to show that the Board would not countenance any arbitrary action on the part of the school personnel in the rating procedure.

Mr. BATES. If you are to be compensated, why not out of the funds chat are created as a result of the game?

Mr. LUND. Some cities do that, sir.
Mr. BATES. I know, a great many do.
Mr. Lund. The report here shows that.

Senator Cain. I think the cities to which you referred in my State do it that way. So much money comes in at the gate, so much money goes out of those gate receipts for compensating officials.

Mr. Bates. Do you happen to know the sum total of the net receipts from those sources, say in the last fiscal year?

Mr. Lund. No, sir, I do not know that, offhand. I can get them.

Mr. Bates. Do you think they would be adequate to pay the coaches for this so-called extracurricular work?

Mr. LUND. No, sir; I do not believe so, because we do not charge enough admission for games.

Senator Cain. Is varsity football self-supporting ?
Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. But the surplus from football goes to carry the deficits in a good many other sports?

Mr. LUND. Yes.
Senator Cain. What is the net position at the end of the year

for all varsity sports?

Mr. LUND. I do not recall the exact figures, but it is not very high, it is a matter of perhaps $2,000. It is due to the gate receipts being so low, charging 25 cents for students and 60 cents for adults. We could not support the coaches' pay, I do not believe.

Dr. CORNING. I would like to remind you, Congressman Bates, you requested from us a tabulation of various funds in the various schools. In that you will find the exact status of the athletic fund in the schools.

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