Mr. BATES. I am dealing with figures, not with principles. That is only $12,000,000 to meet a $15,000,000 deficit. Neither you nor Senator Cain have talked about the real-estate tax that I am very much interested in. What have you to say about that?

Mrs. ADAMS. When you study that, our testimony here

Senator CAIN. I remember exactly what he said; he did not want it. Mrs. ADAMS. We have a number of items that we would support for taxation. We would support a tax on various items that you are proposing to tax.

Mr. BATES. We are not proposing. We are studying proposals made to us.

Senator CAIN. Mr. Bates is merely making one comment, I think, and that is that the proposals that your organization very properly said they will support, will not in themselves accomplish the expanding of the essential services that are of such grave concern to everybody here.

Mrs. ADAMS. They would if the Federal payment were sufficient; is that not granted?

Senator CAIN. I think you have a complete answer to our whole dilemma, if it worked that way. I could resolve this difficulty by changing places with the witness.

Mrs. ADAMS. Also income tax, if we could work that out.

Senator CAIN. You are answering very fairly from your point of view, your position. You think and are convinced that this whole problem can somehow be reconciled without recourse to the sales tax. It is very fair for us to establish that position. We want to know from what sources we can derive support and understanding with reference to the sales tax if it becomes necessary, and it is not with prejudice to you at all.

We have enjoyed your being here.

Mrs. ADAMS. Thank you.

Senator CAIN. I do not think there is any particular significance to the fact that the next gentleman, who is the chairman of the physical education teachers coaching interscholastic sports has been placed under adhesive tape on my list of witnesses. Anyhow, that is where he is.

Mr. Lund, if you will sit down and proceed as you see fit, we will appreciate it. We have probably been reading about you in the newspapers on the sport pages. There has been some talk about your problem.

STATEMENT OF ROLLAND J. LUND, CHAIRMAN, PHYSICAL EDUCATION TEACHERS COACHING INTERSCHOLASTIC SPORTS, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Mr. LUND. I am the elected chairman of the men's physical education teachers for the District of Columbia public high schools in divisions 1 through 13. They have felt that in lieu of a study being made on the inequities of the 1945 Teachers' Salary Act, that the men, the physical education teachers, who are coaching interscholastic teams, should be compensated in money for this extra service.

We support that with these items. First of all, the physical education teachers are hired to teach health, safety, and physical education. The normal school day that has been mentioned has been from 9 o'clock until 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

We also conduct and handle all of the extracurricular programs which are part of our duties, which may run an additional hour or so after school.

Senator CAIN. Do you mind if we interrupt from time to time? Mr. LUND. No, sir.

Senator CAIN. For example, you are hired by the educational school system of Washington as a physical education teacher, not as a teacher of history, or biology, or something else; am I correct in that assumption?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator CAIN. Therefore, every one of the persons whom you are speaking for is actually in that physical-education category. You are not talking about any persons who teach something else, but have a particular talent for athletic endeavors?

Mr. LUND. That is right, sir.

These physical-education teachers are required actually to teach, which is coaching, because we are required to coach these boys after school an average of 3 to 4 hours daily during the sports season. Oftentimes it means that the football coach has to start work on September 1, which is the opening of the football season for official practice. Sometimes on Saturdays we have to practice or play games, and during the Christmas holidays, during the Easter holidays, and often, as in basketball, until 10 o'clock at night.

While custodians and other teacher personnel who are performing other work after school hours are being paid, we are not being paid for our extra professional services rendered. Teachers who work at the gate in selling or collecting tickets at football games are paid.

Senator CAIN. By what means?

Mr. LUND. They are paid by the school, probably through the athletic association.

Senator CAIN. What form of compensation?

Mr. LUND. Cash, so much per hour.

Mr. BATES. Is that based on their teacher's salary?

Mr. LUND. No, sir.

Senator CAIN. A history teacher goes out and takes the tickets for example.

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator CAIN. That is sort of extracurricular work.

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator CAIN. It is work for which an outsider presumably could be hired?

Mr. LUND. That is correct.

Mr. BATES. I thought the teachers were busy examining the papers, preparing for the next day's class.

Senator CAIN. They are like some of our elevator operators, they can do two things at one and the same time.

Mr. LUND. Teachers who work at the basketball games and are in high-school league are paid for handling the public-address sys

tem, for keeping score, and for keeping time. Most of these teachers are coaches or physical-education teachers in the system.

If a teacher teaches in a night high school, that teacher is paid $2.60 per class for the first 3 years of experience—that is, night highschool experience and after that the scale raises.

Senator CAIN. That is, in addition to their base salary?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir. This is professional services rendered. They are paid for by class, and we coach for nothing.

Senator CAIN. What is the minimum, and what are the maximum salaries, that you physical-education teachers receive?

Mr. LUND. We are in the same category as the other teachers-3-A is the present salary schedule.

Senator CAIN. Your proposed minimum is $3,000 to $4,200; your present is $2,100 to $3,300?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator CAIN. All right, sir. Mr. Bates and I are going to want to have your suggestions as to how in your opinion this seeming dilemma could be satisfied.

Mr. LUND. The National Education Association made a survey of cities whose populations were over 100,000. They have prepared the report as of April 1946. They have found that in 81 of these cities which reported, 53 are giving the physical-education men who are coaching, extra pay for this extra service. Since this survey, two more cities have been added-New York City and Baltimore.

Senator CAIN. May I say to you, Mr. School Board Member, that this is an interesting subject, and before we are through let us get into it from your school board's standpoint.

Mr. LEE. We expect to do that.

Mr. BATES. That has all been studied, I presume?

Mr. LEE. That has all been considered, Mr. Bates.

Mr. LUND. This list of various cities covers quite a number of States throughout the United States. Boston and Fall River, Mass., are paying their men extra money. Likewise, in the State of Washington

Senator CAIN. Let us use the State of Washington, for example. I have some small affection for it; I like to have somebody talk about it. How do they do it out there?

Mr. BATES. What does Tacoma do, for instance?

Senator CAIN. To my distress, it seldom appears among these great cities. I do not understand that.

Mr. LUND. Tacoma, Wash., pays athletic coaches as follows: Interscholastic managers, $250 per season; football coaches, two of them, $125 and $250; basketball coaches, two of them, $100 and $200; baseball coach, $125; track coach, $125; swimming coach, $80; wrestling and boxing, golf coach, $50; tennis coach, $50; intramural sports, $100; rifle club, $100; and the trainer for the teams, $100.

Senator CAIN. Does it appear as a result of your study that there is a present trend in America to provide extra compensation for teachers in your category?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir, definitely. Seattle and Spokane also pay their coaches. Seattle pays their football coach $400; assistant, $200; basketball coach, $200, and assistant basketball coach, $100.

Senator CAIN. I wish you would not get into that Spokane business; it makes Tacoma look bad. We are both progressive cities, apparently. Mr. LUND. I lived in Spokane for 1 year while I was in the service. We have broken down the amount of pupils who participate in each sport in each school-that is, the 12 high schools that have varsity teams. We have found that 22,775 pupils participate per school in all sports during one school year. Multiplying by 12 makes a total of 273,000 pupils who participate in sports. This is approximate, from the poll that we made with the coaches. This involves approximately a million pupil-hours.

So it shows the tremendous amount of preparation and time we are spending with these boys.

Senator CAIN. May I ask if a number of your physical-education teachers in the public-school system are there in the hope that they will develop their own talents and so on, so that they will go on to comparable coaching work of one kind or another in American universities and colleges? Or, to put the question the other way around, do most of your physical-education teachers make a profession of teaching in the public-school system?

Mr. LUND. I think, sir, that most of the men are preparing to teach physical education. I do not believe that we have had but one or two that I know of, or three, that are planning to go into teaching in college.

Senator CAIN. Their present endeavor is their life work?

Mr. LUND. Yes.

Mr. BATES. Probably the opportunities in colleges and universities are very limited, anyway, compared with the total number of teachers available in the secondary schools and high schools of the country. Mr. LUND. Yes.

Mr. BATES. How many physical-education instructors have you in the Washington schools?

Mr. LUND. We have 46.

Mr. BATES. What percentage of those are women?

Mr. LUND. This is men only.

Mr. BATES. How many women?

Mr. LUND. I do not know.

Mr. LEE. Approximately the same number.

Mr. LUND. There are 46 men physical-education instructors. Senator CAIN. You are speaking in support of the women as well as the men?

Mr. LUND. No, sir; the men.

Mr. BATES. He is speaking particularly for this so-called extracurricular work.

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir. Washington, D. C. does not have any girls' program at all.

Mr. BATES. So what you are speaking about is extra work that the men teachers have to do over and above what the women teachers have to do, or do do?

Mr. LUND. Over any teachers.

Mr. BATES. Physical-education teachers.

Mr. LUND. They are all included.

Mr. BATES. Women teachers in physical education do not have this extracurricular work that you are speaking about, do they?

Mr. LUND. No, sir.

Mr. BATES. You are required to do it?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator CAIN. The women mostly have gym classes, I dare say, during the course of the school day?

Mr. LUND. The same as we do, but the intramurals which we handle, and we do not ask any pay for that.

Mr. BATES. The intramurals take place during the late afternoon, after school hours?

Mr. LUND. Some are during school hours and some are after school. That is part of our teaching duties.

Mr. BATES. Now let me ask you this question: At these games, they are open to the public; is the public charged an admission?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. What becomes of the proceeds?

Mr. LUND. The proceeds are deposited into the inter-high fund. We have an inter-high-school organization. That is controlled by Inter-High School Council, one representative from each school. The receipts are recorded. We have the treasurer, who happens to be the assistant principal of the high school. He accounts for all the money. From time to time they declare a dividend and they send back to each school a certain amount of money which they consider is a surplus.

Mr. BATES. Does the school department have control over those funds, auditing, and so on?

Mr. LUND. The money goes back to each high school, and the principal places that, of course, into the general fund of the high school. Dr. CORNING. And they are audited.

Senator CAIN. Do you have physical-education teachers who do not coach these varsity sports?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator CAIN. Is there a requirement that makes a physical-education teacher coach a sport if he does not want to?

Mr. LUND. Not in the rules; no, sir. But the principal asks a man to coach a team and he expects the man to coach the team. If he does not coach the team, he would be transferred. That has happened in the past.

Senator CAIN. Transferred to another school within the system? Mr. LUND. Yes. Or probably be reduced in his rating as being inefficient or not cooperating.

Senator CAIN. I would like to stop there and ask the superintendent, without prejudice, because that is rather important, is there substance, Mr. Superintendent, to the witness' comment that because a man-İ could foresee for a lot of reasons; say I am one of the very best physical-education teachers in the business, but because of obligations I have on the side, family and so on, I am in no position to coach. I would do a good job during the course of the day, and beyond that I will not go a step. Is there any reason for Mr. Bates and me to assume that that man's very reasonable attitude would result in a down-rating of efficiency?

Dr. CORNING. If it did, I would down-rate the official that did it, sir. Senator CAIN. In other words, it may happen in particular situations over which, or with which you are not familiar as the Superintendent of the system?