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Mr. BATEs. I am dealing with figures, not with principles. That is only $12,000,000 to meet a $15,000,000 deficit. Neither you nor Senator Cain have talked about the real-estate tax that I am very much interested in. What have you to say about that? Mrs. Adams. When you study that, our testimony here Senator Cain. I remember exactly what he said; he did not want it. Mrs. ADAMS. We have a number of items that we would support for taxation. We would support a tax on various items that you are proposing to tax.

Mr. BATES. We are not proposing. We are studying proposals made to us.

Senator Cain. Mr. Bates is merely making one comment, I think, and that is that the proposals that your organization very properly said they will support, will not in themselves accomplish the expanding of the essential services that are of such grave concern to everybody here.

Mrs. ADAMS. They would if the Federal payment were sufficient; is that not granted?

Senator Cain. I think you have a complete answer to our whole dilemma, if it worked that way. I could resolve this difficulty by changing places with the witness.

Mrs. ADAMS. Also income tax, if we could work that out.

Senator Cain. You are answering very fairly from your point of view, your position. You think and are convinced that this whole problem can somehow be reconciled without recourse to the sales tax. It is very fair for us to establish that position. We want to know from what sources we can derive support and understanding with reference to the sales tax if it becomes necessary, and it is not with prejudice to you at all.

We have enjoyed your being here.
Mrs. ADAMS. Thank

you. Senator Cain. I do not think there is any particular significance to the fact that the next gentleman, who is the chairman of the physical education teachers coaching interscholastic sports has been placed under adhesive tape on my list of witnesses. Anyhow, that is where he is.

Mr. Lund, if you will sit down and proceed as you see fit, we will appreciate it. We have probably been reading about you in the newspapers on the sport pages. There has been some talk about your problem.

STATEMENT OF ROLLAND J. LUND, CHAIRMAN, PHYSICAL EDUCATION TEACHERS COACHING INTERSCHOLASTIC SPORTS, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Mr. Lund. I am the elected chairman of the men's physical education teachers for the District of Columbia public high schools in divisions 1 through 13. They have felt that in lieu of a study being made on the inequities of the 1945 Teachers' Salary Act, that the men, the physical education teachers, who are coaching interscholastic teams, should be compensated in money for this extra service.

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Mr. BATES. I do not think, if you examine the facts, that you will find, if we doubled or tripled the income from income tax sources, as recommended by the District government today, and even doubling the amount of the Federal contribution, that we will by any stretch of the imagination meet the requirements of the budget plus the additional requirements of the teachers' salary increases.

I think that is quite an obvious condition.

Senator Cain. Now as we read, Mr. Bates and I, this record, when we try to draw certain conclusions, and we see where some very intelligent people could make a fine presentation against the sales tax and we decide not to go to the sales tax, not to recommend it, and in not recommending it, we do not get any increases for the teachers, that is why I asked that question. Is there any latitude in the minds of the organization which you represent concerning that sales tax?

Will things be so rigid that if that needs to be imposed they do not want it imposed regardless of any services?

Mrs. ADAMS. You will notice from our statement on the sales tax we believe it is an unfair tax and taxes those most who are least able to pay, and we believe that if we do get the three-quarters of the people living in the District to pay income taxes who are not paying them now because of a poorly defined law that we will have adequate funds. Of course we do count on the Federal payment.

Senator Cain. We think you are wrong, but we are not certain yet.

Mrs. Adams. I trust that our previous testimony will be examined. I do not believe there is any point in going into detail on it. Our thinking, which has been going on all during the past year, has been equitable taxation.

We feel that the District is not in such a desperate plight as may be thought by some people, that we can work out an equitable tax system that will not tax those least able to pay,

Of course, I have a child in school myself and am interested in seeing that teachers are fairly paid, but I cannot go back on the sales tax.

Mr. BATEs. I just want to summarize again, because I think you will understand by the discussion that we have given a great deal of thought to the question of revenues, the question of Government requirements, the question involved in assessing, doing something to raise the level of teachers' salaries in the District, but I think the corporation counsel would tell you, even if this bill became law, it may at the outset raise 4 or 5 million in excess of present revenues. We are dealing with an estimated deficit of $13,000,000 in the 1918 budget, plus the addition that would be created by this bill, so that we are probably facing a $15,000,000 to $16,000,000 deficit, so that if we do pass the type of bill that is recommended it will bring about $4,000,000 to meet the $15,000,000 deficit.

In addition to that, if we should double the Federal contribution of $8,000,000 and make it $16,000,000, that is 8 plus 4, $12,000,000, to meet a $15,000,000 deficit.

Mrs. Adams. We do not feel that that is exactly a contribution. We feel that that is a payment for services. It does make a lot of difference, I think, to us in this voteless area that we are getting payment for services.

Mr. Bates. I am dealing with figures, not with principles. That is only $12,000,000 to meet a $15,000,000 deficit. Neither you nor Senator Cain have talked about the real-estate tax that I am very much interested in. What have you to say about that?

Mrs. Adams. When you study that, our testimony here
Senator Cain. I remember exactly what he said; he did not want it.

Mrs. ADAMS. We have a number of items that we would support for taxation. We would support a tax on various items that you are proposing to tax.

Mr. BATES. We are not proposing. We are studying proposals made to us.

Senator Cain. Mr. Bates is merely making one comment, I think, and that is that the proposals that your organization very properly said they will support, will not in themselves accomplish the expanding of the essential services that are of such grave concern to everybody here.

Mrs. Adams. They would if the Federal payment were sufficient; is that not granted ?

Senator Cain. I think you have a complete answer to our whole dilemma, if it worked that way. I could resolve this difficulty by changing places with the witness.

Mi's. ADAMS. Also income tax, if we could work that out. Senator Cain. You are answering very fairly from your point of view, your position. You think and are convinced that this whole problem can somehow be reconciled without recourse to the sales tax. It is very fair for us to establish that position. We want to know from what sources we can derive support and understanding with reference to the sales tax if it becomes necessary, and it is not with prejudice to you at all.

We have enjoyed your being here.
Mrs. ADAMS. Thank you.

Senator Cain. I do not think there is any particular significance to the fact that the next gentleman, who is the chairman of the physical education teachers coaching interscholastic sports has been placed under adhesive tape on my list of witnesses. Anyhow, that is where he is.

Mr. Lund, if you will sit down and proceed as you see fit, we will appreciate it. We have probably been reading about you in the newspapers on the sport pages. There has been some talk about your problem.

STATEMENT OF ROLLAND J. LUND, CHAIRMAN, PHYSICAL EDUCATION TEACHERS COACHING INTERSCHOLASTIC SPORTS, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Mr. Lund. I am the elected chairman of the men's physical education teachers for the District of Columbia public high schools in divi

sions 1 through 13. They have felt that in lieu of a study being made E on the inequities of the 1945 Teachers' Salary Act, that the men,

the physical education teachers, who are coaching interscholastic (teams, should be compensated in money for this extra service.

We support that with these items. First of all, the physical education teachers are hired to teach health, safety, and physical education. The normal school day that has been mentioned has been from 9 o'clock until 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

We also conduct and handle all of the extracurricular programs which are part of our duties, which may run an additional hour or so after school.

Senator Cain. Do you mind if we interrupt from time to time?
Mr. LUND. No, sir.

Senator Cain. For example, you are hired by the educational school system of Washington as a physical education teacher, not as a teacher of history, or biology, or something else; am I correct in that assumption ?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. Therefore, every one of the persons whom you are speaking for is actually in that physical-education category. You are not talking about any persons who teach something else, but have a particular talent for athletic endeavors? Mr. Lund. That is right, sir.

These physical-education teachers are required actually to teach, which is coaching, because we are required to coach these boys after school an average of 3 to 4 hours daily during the sports season. Oftentimes it means that the football coach has to start work on September 1, which is the opening of the football season for official practice. Sometimes on Saturdays we have to practice or play games, and during the Christmas holidays, during the Easter holidays, and often, as in basketball, until 10 o'clock at night.

While custodians and other teacher personnel who are performing other work after school hours are being paid, we are not being paid for our extra professional services rendered. Teachers who work at the gate in selling or collecting tickets at football games are paid.

Senator Cain. By what means?

Mr. Lund. They are paid by the school, probably through the athletic association.

Senator Cain. What form of compensation?
Mr. LUND. Cash, so much per hour.
Mr. Bates. Is that based on their teacher's salary?
Mr. LUND. No, sir.

Senator Cain. A history teacher goes out and takes the tickets for example.

Mr. LU'ND. Yes, sir.
Senator Cain. That is sort of extracurricular work.
Mr. Lund. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. It is work for which an outsider presumably could be hired?

Mr. LUND. That is correct.

Mr. Bares. I thought the teachers were busy examining the papers, preparing for the next day's class.

Senator Cain. They are like some of our elevator operators, they can do two things at one and the same time.

Mr. LUND. Teachers who work at the basketball games and are in high-school league are paid for handling the public-address system, for keeping score, and for keeping time. Most of these teachers are coaches or physical-education teachers in the system.

If a teacher teaches in a night high school, that teacher is paid $2.60 per class for the first 3 years of experience—that is, night highschool experience—and after that the scale raises.

Senator Cain. That is, in addition to their base salary?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir. This is professional services rendered. They are paid for by class, and we coach for nothing.

Senator Cain. What is the minimum, and what are the maximum salaries, that you physical-education teachers receive?

Mr. Lund. We are in the same category as the other teachers—3-A is the present salary schedule.

Senator Cain. Your proposed minimum is $3,000 to $1,200; your present is $2,100 to $3,300?

Mr. Lund. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. All right, sir. Mr. Bates and I are going to want to have your suggestions as to how in your opinion this seeming dilemma could be satisfied.

Mr. LUND. The National Education Association made a survey of cities whose populations were over 100,000. They have prepared the report as of April 1946. They have found that in 81 of these cities which reported, 53 are giving the physical-education men who are coaching, extra pay for this extra service. Since this survey, two more cities have been added—New York City and Baltimore.

Senator Cain. May I say to you, Mr. School Board Member, that this is an interesting subject, and before we are through let us get into it from your school board's standpoint.

Mr. LEE. We expect to do that.
Mr. Bates. That has all been studied, I presume?
Mr. LEE. That has all been considered, Mr. Bates.

Mr. LUND. This list of various cities covers quite a number of States throughout the United States. Boston and Fall River, Mass., are paying their men extra money. Likewise, in the State of Washington

Senator Cain. Let us use the State of Washington, for example. I have some small affection for it; I like to have somebody talk about it. How do they do it out there?

Mr. BATES. What does Tacoma do, for instance?

Senator Cain. To my distress, it seldom appears among these great cities. I do not understand that.

Mr. Lund. Tacoma, Wash., pays athletic coaches as follows: Interscholastic managers, $250 per season; football coaches, two of them, $125 and $250; basketball coaches, two of them, $100 and $200; baseball coach, $125; track coach, $125; swimming coach, $80; wrestling and boxing, golf coach, $50; tennis coach, $50; intramural sports, $100; rifle club, $100; and the trainer for the teams, $100.

Senator Cain. Does it appear as a result of your study that there is a present trend in America to provide extra compensation for teachers in your category?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir, definitely. Seattle and Spokane also pay their coaches. Seattle pays their football coach $400; assistant, $200; bas

. ketball coach, $200, and assistant basketball coach, $100.

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