Mr. BATES. I do not think, if you examine the facts, that you will find, if we doubled or tripled the income from income tax sources, as recommended by the District government today, and even doubling the amount of the Federal contribution, that we will by any stretch of the imagination meet the requirements of the budget plus the additional requirements of the teachers' salary increases.

I think that is quite an obvious condition.

Senator CAIN. Now as we read, Mr. Bates and I, this record, when we try to draw certain conclusions, and we see where some very intelligent people could make a fine presentation against the sales tax and we decide not to go to the sales tax, not to recommend it, and in not recommending it, we do not get any increases for the teachers, that is why I asked that question. Is there any latitude in the minds of the organization which you represent concerning that sales tax?

Will things be so rigid that if that needs to be imposed they do not want it imposed regardless of any services?

Mrs. ADAMS. You will notice from our statement on the sales tax we believe it is an unfair tax and taxes those most who are least able to pay, and we believe that if we do get the three-quarters of the people living in the District to pay income taxes who are not paying them now because of a poorly defined law that we will have adequate funds. Of course we do count on the Federal payment.

Senator CAIN. We think you are wrong, but we are not certain yet. Mrs. ADAMS. I trust that our previous testimony will be examined. I do not believe there is any point in going into detail on it. Our thinking, which has been going on all during the past year, has been equitable taxation.

We feel that the District is not in such a desperate plight as may be thought by some people, that we can work out an equitable tax system that will not tax those least able to pay.

Of course, I have a child in school myself and am interested in seeing that teachers are fairly paid, but I cannot go back on the sales

tax.

Mr. BATES. I just want to summarize again, because I think you will understand by the discussion that we have given a great deal of thought to the question of revenues, the question of Government requirements, the question involved in assessing, doing something to raise the level of teachers' salaries in the District, but I think the corporation counsel would tell you, even if this bill became law, it may at the outset raise 4 or 5 million in excess of present revenues. We are dealing with an estimated deficit of $13,000,000 in the 1948 budget, plus the addition that would be created by this bill, so that we are probably facing a $15,000,000 to $16,000,000 deficit, so that if we do pass the type of bill that is recommended it will bring about $4,000,000 to meet the $15,000,000 deficit.

In addition to that, if we should double the Federal contribution of $8,000,000 and make it $16,000,000, that is 8 plus 4, $12,000,000, to meet a $15,000,000 deficit.

Mrs. ADAMS. We do not feel that that is exactly a contribution. We feel that that is a payment for services. It does make a lot of difference, I think, to us in this voteless area that we are getting payment for

services.

Mr. BATES. I am dealing with figures, not with principles. That is only $12,000,000 to meet a $15,000,000 deficit. Neither you nor Senator Cain have talked about the real-estate tax that I am very much interested in. What have you to say about that?

Mrs. ADAMS. When you study that, our testimony here

Senator CAIN. I remember exactly what he said; he did not want it. Mrs. ADAMS. We have a number of items that we would support for taxation. We would support a tax on various items that you are proposing to tax.

Mr. BATES. We are not proposing. We are studying proposals made to us.

Senator CAIN. Mr. Bates is merely making one comment, I think, and that is that the proposals that your organization very properly said they will support, will not in themselves accomplish the expanding of the essential services that are of such grave concern to everybody here.

Mrs. ADAMS. They would if the Federal payment were sufficient; is that not granted?

Senator CAIN. I think you have a complete answer to our whole dilemma, if it worked that way. I could resolve this difficulty by changing places with the witness.

Mrs. ADAMS. Also income tax, if we could work that out.

Senator CAIN. You are answering very fairly from your point of view, your position. You think and are convinced that this whole problem can somehow be reconciled without recourse to the sales tax. It is very fair for us to establish that position. We want to know from what sources we can derive support and understanding with reference to the sales tax if it becomes necessary, and it is not with prejudice to you at all.

We have enjoyed your being here.

Mrs. ADAMS. Thank you.

Senator CAIN. I do not think there is any particular significance to the fact that the next gentleman, who is the chairman of the physical education teachers coaching interscholastic sports has been placed under adhesive tape on my list of witnesses. Anyhow, that is where he is.

Mr. Lund, if you will sit down and proceed as you see fit, we will appreciate it. We have probably been reading about you in the newspapers on the sport pages. There has been some talk about your problem.

STATEMENT OF ROLLAND J. LUND, CHAIRMAN, PHYSICAL EDUCATION TEACHERS COACHING INTERSCHOLASTIC SPORTS, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Mr. LUND. I am the elected chairman of the men's physical education teachers for the District of Columbia public high schools in divisions 1 through 13. They have felt that in lieu of a study being made on the inequities of the 1945 Teachers' Salary Act, that the men, the physical education teachers, who are coaching interscholastic teams, should be compensated in money for this extra service.

Mr. BATES. I do not think, if you examine the facts, that you will find, if we doubled or tripled the income from income tax sources, as recommended by the District government today, and even doubling the amount of the Federal contribution, that we will by any stretch of the imagination meet the requirements of the budget plus the additional requirements of the teachers' salary increases.

I think that is quite an obvious condition.

Senator CAIN. Now as we read, Mr. Bates and I, this record, when we try to draw certain conclusions, and we see where some very intelligent people could make a fine presentation against the sales tax and we decide not to go to the sales tax, not to recommend it, and in not recommending it, we do not get any increases for the teachers, that is why I asked that question. Is there any latitude in the minds of the organization which you represent concerning that sales tax?

Will things be so rigid that if that needs to be imposed they do not want it imposed regardless of any services?

Mrs. ADAMS. You will notice from our statement on the sales tax we believe it is an unfair tax and taxes those most who are least able to pay, and we believe that if we do get the three-quarters of the people living in the District to pay income taxes who are not paying them now because of a poorly defined law that we will have adequate funds. Of course we do count on the Federal payment.

Senator CAIN. We think you are wrong, but we are not certain yet. Mrs. ADAMS. I trust that our previous testimony will be examined. I do not believe there is any point in going into detail on it. Our thinking, which has been going on all during the past year, has been equitable taxation.

We feel that the District is not in such a desperate plight as may be thought by some people, that we can work out an equitable tax system that will not tax those least able to pay.

Of course, I have a child in school myself and am interested in seeing that teachers are fairly paid, but I cannot go back on the sales

tax.

Mr. BATES. I just want to summarize again, because I think you will understand by the discussion that we have given a great deal of thought to the question of revenues, the question of Government requirements, the question involved in assessing, doing something to raise the level of teachers' salaries in the District, but I think the corporation counsel would tell you, even if this bill became law, it may at the outset raise 4 or 5 million in excess of present revenues. We are dealing with an estimated deficit of $13,000,000 in the 1948 budget, plus the addition that would be created by this bill, so that we are probably facing a $15,000,000 to $16,000,000 deficit, so that if we do pass the type of bill that is recommended it will bring about $4,000,000 to meet the $15,000,000 deficit.

In addition to that, if we should double the Federal contribution of $8,000,000 and make it $16,000,000, that is 8 plus 4, $12,000,000, to meet a $15,000,000 deficit.

Mrs. ADAMS. We do not feel that that is exactly a contribution. We feel that that is a payment for services. It does make a lot of difference, I think, to us in this voteless area that we are getting payment for

services.

Mr. BATES. I am dealing with figures, not with principles. That is only $12,000,000 to meet a $15,000,000 deficit. Neither you nor Senator Cain have talked about the real-estate tax that I am very much interested in. What have you to say about that?

Mrs. ADAMS. When you study that, our testimony here

Senator CAIN. I remember exactly what he said; he did not want it. Mrs. ADAMS. We have a number of items that we would support for taxation. We would support a tax on various items that you are proposing to tax.

Mr. BATES. We are not proposing. We are studying proposals made to us.

Senator CAIN. Mr. Bates is merely making one comment, I think, and that is that the proposals that your organization very properly said they will support, will not in themselves accomplish the expanding of the essential services that are of such grave concern to everybody here.

Mrs. ADAMS. They would if the Federal payment were sufficient; is that not granted?

Senator CAIN. I think you have a complete answer to our whole dilemma, if it worked that way. I could resolve this difficulty by changing places with the witness.

Mrs. ADAMS. Also income tax, if we could work that out.

Senator CAIN. You are answering very fairly from your point of view, your position. You think and are convinced that this whole problem can somehow be reconciled without recourse to the sales tax. It is very fair for us to establish that position. We want to know from what sources we can derive support and understanding with reference to the sales tax if it becomes necessary, and it is not with prejudice to you at all.

We have enjoyed your being here.

Mrs. ADAMS. Thank you.

Senator CAIN. I do not think there is any particular significance to the fact that the next gentleman, who is the chairman of the physical education teachers coaching interscholastic sports has been placed under adhesive tape on my list of witnesses. Anyhow, that is where he is.

Mr. Lund, if you will sit down and proceed as you see fit, we will appreciate it. We have probably been reading about you in the newspapers on the sport pages. There has been some talk about your problem.

STATEMENT OF ROLLAND J. LUND, CHAIRMAN, PHYSICAL EDUCATION TEACHERS COACHING INTERSCHOLASTIC SPORTS, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Mr. LUND. I am the elected chairman of the men's physical education teachers for the District of Columbia public high schools in divisions 1 through 13. They have felt that in lieu of a study being made on the inequities of the 1945 Teachers' Salary Act, that the men, the physical education teachers, who are coaching interscholastic teams, should be compensated in money for this extra service.

- Mr. BATES. I do not think, if you examine the facts, that you will find, if we doubled or tripled the income from income tax sources, as recommended by the District government today, and even doubling the amount of the Federal contribution, that we will by any stretch of the imagination meet the requirements of the budget plus the additional requirements of the teachers' salary increases.

I think that is quite an obvious condition.

Senator CAIN. Now as we read, Mr. Bates and I, this record, when we try to draw certain conclusions, and we see where some very intelligent people could make a fine presentation against the sales tax and we decide not to go to the sales tax, not to recommend it, and in not recommending it, we do not get any increases for the teachers, that is why I asked that question. Is there any latitude in the minds of the organization which you represent concerning that sales tax?

Will things be so rigid that if that needs to be imposed they do not want it imposed regardless of any services?

Mrs. ADAMS. You will notice from our statement on the sales tax we believe it is an unfair tax and taxes those most who are least able to pay, and we believe that if we do get the three-quarters of the people living in the District to pay income taxes who are not paying them now because of a poorly defined law that we will have adequate funds. Of course we do count on the Federal payment.

Senator CAIN. We think you are wrong, but we are not certain yet. Mrs. ADAMS. I trust that our previous testimony will be examined. I do not believe there is any point in going into detail on it. Our thinking, which has been going on all during the past year, has been equitable taxation.

We feel that the District is not in such a desperate plight as may be thought by some people, that we can work out an equitable tax system that will not tax those least able to pay.

Of course, I have a child in school myself and am interested in seeing that teachers are fairly paid, but I cannot go back on the sales

tax.

Mr. BATES. I just want to summarize again, because I think you will understand by the discussion that we have given a great deal of thought to the question of revenues, the question of Government requirements, the question involved in assessing, doing something to raise the level of teachers' salaries in the District, but I think the corporation counsel would tell you, even if this bill became law, it may at the outset raise 4 or 5 million in excess of present revenues. We are dealing with an estimated deficit of $13,000,000 in the 1948 budget, plus the addition that would be created by this bill, so that we are probably facing a $15,000,000 to $16,000,000 deficit, so that if we do pass the type of bill that is recommended it will bring about $4,000,000 to meet the $15,000,000 deficit.

In addition to that, if we should double the Federal contribution of $8,000,000 and make it $16,000,000, that is 8 plus 4, $12,000,000, to meet a $15,000,000 deficit.

Mrs. ADAMS. We do not feel that that is exactly a contribution. We feel that that is a payment for services. It does make a lot of difference, I think, to us in this voteless area that we are getting payment for

services.