of the delinquency problem, and first the truancy problem, has to be a cooperative effort. I mean there are a number of things that have to do with it. The overcrowded schools where you have a double shift is the cause of it in those places, and the circumstances in the city, and the housing areas have another thing to do with it.

However, I do think that must be true, that the presence of authority where it is needed is important, but we also must have something to offer people as a substitute for the cause of the delinquency. In the school where my daughter goes, if a couple of girls pick up and decide to go to Baltimore and finally are caught by the police and are brought back and so forth, there is a problem in the home of those girls. There is a problem in the lives of those girls and you are not going to solve that, in my opinion, just by a threat against the families or the girls themselves.

Somebody must watch that situation and try to use that situation and try to use whatever social facilities the District may afford to try and see that there is some solution for those children.

Mr. BATES. They can get the information together on the over-all problem.

Mr. MURRAY. It is the job of the attendance people to provide whatever information is necessary and take those girls off the street.

Mr. BATES. I still believe in the philosophy of Theodore Roosevelt, "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

Mr. MURRAY. I would like to get on to the teachers, into this question of the workweek and the working year for teachers which I think is important.

Miss HURLEY. That is the only comment I have to make, that when we speak of the minimum salary for teachers, as compared with Government workers, there seems to be a sign of alarm for everybody immediately, because we do not seemingly work as long as the Government worker who goes at 8 and works until 5, for a longer period

of time.

I made a few notes of what we actually do during the school day and during the school week that I thought might be interesting. For instance, it took a sort of average or minimum amount of time spent doing various things, to add them up and see where we came out.

Every teacher spends at least two hours in planning work, besides the ordinary school day from 9 to 3. That, I think, is a minimum. That may be spent after school at the building, that may be spent at home. Some teachers go to school at 8 o'clock and work until school takes in at 9 o'clock and then go home and work. Others work after school until 4 or 5 o'clock, and get their planning done for the next day, get their work on the board, get seat working made in cases of primary instruction, and in that way consume at least two hours per day, besides their regular instruction time.

Mr. BATES. Of course Senator Cain and myself have been a good many years at this work, and we thoroughly understand that point of view. We are not raising any question as to the time required of a good teacher to properly take care of her work.

It is not altogether, as we know, in the classroom.

Senator CAIN. I do not see the connection between what the Government worker gets and the school teacher gets. You are referring to the Government workers as they work here in Washington, D. C., and the wage scales which they receive on the average are far in excess of the salaries paid throughout this country, to the end that you funnel up in Washington on a lot of people who would be better off if they worked longer hours at lower wages, executives and otherwise. I feel very seriously about that. We have a school problem but we must tackle that governmental problem, which is a much broader one. If we take it up by way of universal adoption, your dollar will be worth about half what it is worth now.

Mr. MURRAY. Senator Cain, I had addressed myself to that before you came in. The problem we see here is, you want to staff the District schools and you want to staff them with capable professional people.

Any person with a college degree is eligible for employment in any job that requires that job in the Government at $2,600 a year. The bill is proposing to pay the teachers $2,500 on the basis of equity with Government. It is a hundred dollars short of equity. We do not see why there should be that shortage. I asked Miss Hurley to prepare these figures. The two hours preparation does not take care of the whole thing. I wish she would come up with the total she arrived at. If you start cutting down below and lower than the standard for teachers salaries, there is an early tendency to say, "Well, after all, they do not work a full year."

We have met that so much, though not in this committee. We thought it was an important sort of thing to have people understand because there are people who just do not understand it.

Senator CAIN. I take it a teacher is paid for an annual period of time, and you will not find Mr. Bates and me quibbling at any time over the fact that so many weeks of that year are not used in actually participating in a school room curriculum, for the simple reason that the summer period is spent in making themselves better teachers.

Miss HURLEY. The lunch hour of the teacher is not fully free, the duties at lunch hour with the supervision of children require, on an average basis, at least one quarter of an hour every day. That is taking a half hour of your lunch time for duty every two weeks, which is really an ideal situation, because most schools have it every day.

The attendance at parent-teacher association meetings, which is required, taken on an average, would also take another quarter of an hour per day, if averaged up by the 2-hour Parent-Teacher Association meetings which we attend, which occur every two months, let us say. It would average up to one quarter of an hour.

Mr. BATES. May I ask if it is mandatory that you attend those meetings?

Miss HURLEY. Yes, it is. There may not be a written law, as far as the Board of Education is concerned that we attend those meetings, but your absence would be particularly noticed.

Senator CAIN. You think, in other words, that you ought to go, on an average, 15 minutes a day?

Miss HURLEY. That is a week.

Plus the activities which we call extra-curricular activities, which take up clubs for the children after school in various things like science and dramatics, glee clubs and so forth, which also consume a quarter hour per week, not to mention small items like attending meetings of the supervisor, where you must sign a slip of attendance, which is a requirement, and time that you spend in procuring teaching materials, writing up units for social study and weekly plans, doing promotion records, writing credentials for children, making reports every second week, making attendance reports for the building, turning in records for promotion to junior high school in the case of uppergrade teachers, and taking charge of movies after school where teachers are placed on duty for an hour after school is out to supervise those children during movie time, not to mention rehearsing for school plays and other things which are not always accomplished during your regular school day.

Mr. BATES. What is your regular school day?

Mr. MURRAY. It is 9 to 3.

Mr. BATES. Is there a noon hour?

Mr. MURRAY. There is a lunch hour from 12 to 1, during which time most teachers are required to make some sort of supervision of the children on the play ground at that time in varying degrees of length. Mr. BATES. That is the 5-hour classroom day?

Mr. MURRAY. That is right.

Mr. BATES. That is elementary school?

Mr. MURRAY. Elementary and junior high. They work from 9:30 to 3:30 in some schools, and they have double shifts in on theirs. Mr. BATES. Let us get that right.

Miss Ross. You have a lunch period, usually, but it is not an hour in junior and senior high and it varies with the school. It is around 45 minutes in some schools and a half hour in some schools.

Mr. BATES. Let us take the senior high school.

Miss Ross. There is no rule. The school I teach in gives 30 minutes for lunch. Others have 40 to 45, depending on how our classes are scheduled.

Mr. BATES. What are your hours?

Miss Ross. Nine to three.

Mr. BATES. Does that include high school?

Mr. MURRAY. Miss Hurley is an elementary-school teacher and Miss Ross is a high-school teacher.

Senator CAIN. I keep going back to the principle, in working in concert with you of the schools, we are attempting to secure adequate salary. Everything else leaves me cold, and very cold, because I am hopeful if this country is going to continue to go anywhere, those who in your profession get adequate salary, you might work completely around the clock 5 days a week without asking favors of anybody. You are doing that because that is your profession.

If you get a good salary, we do not have to worry about what you are doing, you do it.

Mr. MURRAY. That is a most refreshing attitude, Mr. Cain, and not perhaps the one we meet most often.

Senator CAIN. The only trouble with America, and I am an American and a very just critic of my own country and myself, is that people

constantly, it seems to me, when we want to help the world, want more and more for doing less and less, and we have to quit it. That is all there is to it.

I like for you to be enthusiastic about your business and you are. Miss Ross. I would like to reinforce our point about giving an average salary so people will go ahead and work on their jobs. If they get adequate salaries they do not have to teach summer school to pay for the house or work a few hours during the winter to supplement their salaries.

Senator CAIN. It is a tough job. Coming out of the funnel somewhere may be something. If we come out of all these hearings not having lost any money for you, you ought to agree that we are all right.

Mr. MURRAY. I would like to know if you would like to hear from Miss Ross, if Miss Ross has anything to add.

Miss Ross. This is just reinforcing something that has already been said. If the elementary junior high school teachers can stay at their level, and do not have to go on to high school when they get the advanced training, they in turn will give better teaching to those children as they go from one to the other.

Senator CAIN. Are we right in our assumption that that is a problem in administration over which this committee has no concern at all? Miss Ross. That is what the single salary scale will do for us, as shown in the bill, except we would like that additional incentive for the high school teachers to go on beyond the master's degree and there is no reason why elementary and junior high school teachers should not have it also. It would not be single salary if they do not. Mr. MURRAY. Would the committee be willing to consider the amendments along the lines that we have suggested, if we submitted them to you in writing?

Mr. BATES. You submit them and they will be included in the record.

Mr. MURRAY. We will furnish those for the record.

(The information is as follows:)

SUGGESTED AMENDMENTS TO S. 1088

(Submitted by Donald Murray, United Public Workers of America CIO)

(Each of the following provisions were approved by the joint legislative conference representing all teachers organizations, but were omitted by the superintendent in his report.)

TWENTY-SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS MINIMUM SALARY

In group A under title 1, article 1, classes, 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6, and under title 1, article 2 classes 32 33, and 34, strike out the figure "$2,500," and in lieu thereof insert the figure "$2,600"; also strike out the figure "$3,700," and insert in lieu thereof the figure "$3,800."

NOTE. The effect of this amendment would simply be to establish a minimum entrance salary for teachers of $2,600 and thus bring the entrance pay for teachers in line with the entrance pay in Government departments for persons required to have college degrees. The maximum for group A would be raised by $3,700 to $3,800 per annum.

Additional salary class for masters degree plus 30 semester hours training
Amend title 1, article 1, class 3, by adding the following language:

Group C: A basic salary of $3,500 per pear, with an annual increase in salary of $200 for 6 years or until a maximum salary of $4,700 per year is reached.

Miss HURLEY. That is a week.

Plus the activities which we call extra-curricular activities, which take up clubs for the children after school in various things like science and dramatics, glee clubs and so forth, which also consume a quarter hour per week, not to mention small items like attending meetings of the supervisor, where you must sign a slip of attendance, which is a requirement, and time that you spend in procuring teaching materials, writing up units for social study and weekly plans, doing promotion records, writing credentials for children, making reports every sec ond week, making attendance reports for the building, turning in records for promotion to junior high school in the case of uppergrade teachers, and taking charge of movies after school where teachers are placed on duty for an hour after school is out to supervise those children during movie time, not to mention rehearsing for school plays and other things which are not always accomplished during your regular school day.

Mr. BATES. What is your regular school day?

Mr. MURRAY. It is 9 to 3.

Mr. BATES. Is there a noon hour?

Mr. MURRAY. There is a lunch hour from 12 to 1, during which time most teachers are required to make some sort of supervision of the children on the play ground at that time in varying degrees of length. Mr. BATES. That is the 5-hour classroom day?

Mr. MURRAY. That is right.

Mr. BATES. That is elementary school?

Mr. MURRAY. Elementary and junior high. They work from 9:30 to 3:30 in some schools, and they have double shifts in on theirs. Mr. BATES. Let us get that right.

Miss Ross. You have a lunch period, usually, but it is not an hour in junior and senior high and it varies with the school. It is around 45 minutes in some schools and a half hour in some schools.

Mr. BATES. Let us take the senior high school.

Miss Ross. There is no rule. The school I teach in gives 30 minutes for lunch. Others have 40 to 45, depending on how our classes are scheduled.

Mr. BATES. What are your hours?

Miss Ross. Nine to three.

Mr. BATES. Does that include high school?

Mr. MURRAY. Miss Hurley is an elementary-school teacher and Miss Ross is a high-school teacher.

Senator CAIN. I keep going back to the principle, in working in concert with you of the schools, we are attempting to secure adequate salary. Everything else leaves me cold, and very cold, because I am hopeful if this country is going to continue to go anywhere, those who in your profession get adequate salary, you might work completely around the clock 5 days a week without asking favors of anybody. You are doing that because that is your profession.

If you get a good salary, we do not have to worry about what you are doing, you do it.

Mr. MURRAY. That is a most refreshing attitude, Mr. Cain, and not perhaps the one we meet most often.

Senator CAIN. The only trouble with America, and I am an American and a very just critic of my own country and myself, is that people