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selves and working with the parents and trying to get some understanding.

In the process of that, they can make, and to the extent they have time and opportunity—there are a very small number of them in the school system; I think there are less than 17 or something like that in the entire system.

Mr. BATES. There are 20.

Mr. MURRAY. They can make a very important contribution to controlling juvenile delinquency. The delinquency first shows up when he does not show up for school. The officers can contribute to stopping that.

They must frequently go and see the parents in the evenings. They sometimes have to go on week ends to see parents of the pupils because they are not home any other time, and officers do that on their own time. They accept that. Just as teachers work more than 8 hours a day in the school year, these people do, too. We believe they should be on a comparable basis with teachers as far as working schedules are concerned.

I would like at this point to turn our part of the discussion over to the teachers here.

I think they can give you some information which I think this committee ought to have, on this question which has been raised of what is comparable with full-time employment in government in terms of hour work.

The teachers have 2 months, presumably, that they do not have to work. They are on vacation. Should that be considered in making a salary schedule?

We think it just cannot be considered, because of the special responsibilities and special nature of the work.

I would like to have a teacher talk that over with you and I think it will be useful to you.

Mr. BATEs. In regard to the attendance officer, Mr. Murray, I think from a study that I have had made by the Bureau of the Census relative to the delinquency problem in the District, and the cost, say, of corrective institutions, it is relatively much higher, I believe the figures show, than comparable cities of comparable size in the country.

I am wondering whether or not the school department-I say this without much thought on my part-whether or not the school department is making a mistake in having all their attendance officers women.

I may be old-fashioned in my ideas, but I have had a lot of experience through life and have quite a sizable family of my own.

As I stated at the previous meeting, we used to have a truant officer who carried a cane around with him. He was an old man with whiskers and wore a badge in his lapel.

That man certainly carried the respect of youngsters going to school. While I do not say this in any critical sense about the operations of the attendance officers, I was a member of the legislature some 25 years ago when we changed that title from truant officer to attendance officer.

I do not know if these high names mean much, but nevertheless we did it at that time.

However, I am inclined to think if we are going to meet this juvenile delinquency situation we must recognize the fact that men must be placed in some positions. I think the psychological effect is going to be worth while.

All but one of your attendance people are women. I just offer that as a little grain of thought on the part of those who are administering the school system. I think we have a place for men in that particular classification.

I am dealing, as I say, through my experience in life over 30 years in matters of this kind and, after all, the fundamental problem of truancy lies in the home. I know that when the police officer comes to the home, the father is liable to take more notice of the officer than he is of a woman who tries to come in and reason it out with him. That is an old-fashioned idea but that is what I believe in just the same.

Miss HURLEY. I think we could attract men if we had a higher salary in the attendance officers' positions.

Mr. BATES. That is true. I believe we have some rather excellent policemen here. I do not know what the relative salaries are, but there is a field for social workers. I do not mean to cast a reflection on the women who are trying to do a good job, but I think we have reached a point in the social problems of our communities.

I am dealing with this problem as a result of years of practical experience in every phase of human activities. I am drawing on that experience and it tells me that the social problems of the country, not only the District, and the District seems to be having a very aggravating problem, according to the information I have had submitted to me, that needs some attention.

I still believe in the old-fashioned officer, that he can do some good. Perhaps if he had a little education along with it, it would help some.

Miss HURLEY. I hope we will notice a difference in delinquency from the teaching standpoint after our salaries are raised to the height of the presented bills here so a staff of attendance officers may not be quite so necessary.

However, I hope in the meantime we can maintain the staff and pay them enough to hold them until that time.

Mr. BATES. I agree with you, I believe this salary has been altogether too low. Although I have been a member of the District Committee, I do not recall a salary bill being submitted.

We have to have an opportunity and we happen to have had an opportunity to study it for the first time in 10 years, only because I do not think the problem has been brought to us. I can well understand that it has been altogether too long

delayed. Mr. MURRAY. I do not want to get off any further on this attendance officer problem, because I think that whatever ideas we might have on the total delinquency problem, Mr. Bates, might not contribute much to this bill, except I do not know whether I made it clear when I spoke of the amendments that we were suggesting here. I do not believe I did, I am sorry to say.

I should have those prepared for you. · We think the attendance officer, together with the other nonteaching but professionals, should have the opportunity for group C and group D in the salary schedule as well as A and B.

are now limited to A and B. That really forces me to make just one more comment on the subject, which is that I think the solving

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of the delinquency problem, and first the truancy problem, has to be a cooperative effort. I mean there are a number of things that have to do with it. The overcrowded schools where you have a double shift is the cause of it in those places, and the circumstances in the city, and the housing areas have another thing to do with it.

However, I do think that must be true, that the presence of authority where it is needed is important, but we also must have something to offer people as a substitute for the cause of the delinquency.

In the school where my daughter goes, if a couple of girls pick up and decide to go to Baltimore and finally are caught by the police and are brought back and so forth, there is a problem in the home of those girls. There is a problem in the lives of those girls and you are not going to solve that, in my opinion, just by a threat against the families or the girls themselves.

Somebody must watch that situation and try to use that situation and try to use whatever social facilities the District may afford to try and see that there is some solution for those children.

Mr. BATEs. They can get the information together on the over-all problem.

Mr. MURRAY. It is the job of the attendance people to provide whatever information is necessary and take those girls off the street.

Mr. Bates. I still believe in the philosophy of Theodore Roosevelt, "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

Mr. MURRAY. I would like to get on to the teachers, into this ques. tion of the workweek and the working year for teachers which I think is important.

Miss HURLEY. That is the only comment I have to make, that when we speak of the minimum salary for teachers, as compared with Gov. ernment workers, there seems to be a sign of alarm for everybody immediately, because we do not seemingly work as long as the Government worker who goes at 8 and works until 5, for a longer period of time.

I made a few notes of what we actually do during the school day and during the school week that I thought might be interesting. For instance, it took a sort of average or minimum amount of time spent doing various things, to add them up and see where we came out.

Every teacher spends at least two hours in planning work, besides the ordinary school day from 9 to 3. That, I think, is a minimum.

That may be spent after school at the building, that may be spent at home. Some teachers go to school at 8 o'clock and work until school takes in at 9 o'clock and then go home and work. Others work after school until 4 or 5 o'clock, and get their planning done for the next day, get their work on the board, get seat working made in cases of primary instruction, and in that way consume at least two hours per day, besides their regular instruction time.

Mr. BATES. Of course Senator Cain and myself have been a good many years at this work, and we thoronghly understand that point of view. We are not raising any question as to the time required of a good teacher to properly take care of her work.

It is not altogether, as we know, in the classroom.

Senator CAIN. I do not see the connection between what the Government worker gets and the school teacher gets. You are referring to the Government workers as they work here in Washington, D. C., and the wage scales which they receive on the average are far in excess of the salaries paid throughout this country, to the end that you funnel up in Washington on a lot of people who would be better off if they worked longer hours at lower wages, executives and otherwise.

I feel very seriously about that. We have a school problem but we must tackle that governmental problem, which is a much broader one. If we take it up by way of universal adoption, your dollar will be worth about half what it is worth now.

Mr. MURRAY. Senator Cain, I had addressed myself to that before you came in. The problem we see here is, you want to staff the District schools and you want to staff them with capable professional people.

Any person with a college degree is eligible for employment in any job that requires that job in the Government at $2,600 a year. The bill is proposing to pay the teachers $2,500 on the basis of equity with Government. It is a hundred dollars short of equity. We do not see why there should be that shortage. I asked Miss Hurley to prepare these figures. The two hours preparation does not take care of the whole thing. I wish she would come up with the total she arrived at. If you start cutting down below and lower than the standard for teachers salaries, there is an early tendency to say, “Well, after all, they do not work a full year."

We have met that so much, though not in this committee. We thought it was an important sort of thing to have people understand because there are people who just do not understand it.

Senator Cain. I take it a teacher is paid for an annual period of time, and you will not find Mr. Bates and me quibbling at any time over the fact that so many weeks of that year are not used in actually participating in a school room curriculum, for the simple reason that the summer period is spent in making themselves better teachers.

Miss HURLEY. The lunch hour of the teacher is not fully free, the duties at lunch hour with the supervision of children require, on an average basis, at least one quarter of an hour every day. That is taking a half hour of your lunch time for duty every two weeks, which is really an ideal situation, because most schools have it every day.

The attendance at parent-teacher association meetings, which is required, taken on an average, would also take another quarter of an hour per day, if averaged up by the 2-hour Parent-Teacher Association meetings which we attend, which occur every two months, let us say. It would average up to one quarter of an hour.

Mr. Bates. May I ask if it is mandatory that you attend those meetings?

Miss HURLEY. Yes, it is. There may not be a written law, as far as the Board of Education is concerned that we attend those meetings, but your absence would be particularly noticed.

Senator Cain. You think, in other words, that you ought to go, on an average, 15 minutes a day?

Miss HURLEY. That is a week.

Plus the activities which we call extra-curricular activities, which take up clubs for the children after school in various things like science and dramatics, glee clubs and so forth, which also consume a quarter hour per week, not to mention small items like attending meetings of the supervisor, where you must sign a slip of attendance, which is a requirement, and time that you spend in procuring teaching materials, writing up units for social study and weekly plans, doing promotion records, writing credentials for children, making reports every second week, making attendance reports for the building, turning in records for promotion to junior high school in the case of uppergrade teachers, and taking charge of movies after school where teachers are placed on duty for an hour after school is out to supervise those children during movie time, not to mention rehearsing for school plays and other things which are not always accomplished during your regular school day.

Mr. BATES. What is your regular school day?
Mr. MURRAY. It is 9 to 3.
Mr. BATES. Is there a noon hour?

Mr. MURRAY. There is a lunch hour from 12 to 1, during which time most teachers are required to make some sort of supervision of the children on the play ground at that time in varying degrees of length.

Mr. BATEs. That is the 5-hour classroom day?
Mr. MURRAY. That is right.
Mr. Bates. That is elementary school? ?

Mr. MURRAY. Elementary and junior high. They work from 9:30 to 3:30 in some schools, and they have double shifts in on theirs.

Mr. BATEs. Let us get that right.

Miss Ross. You have a lunch period, usually, but it is not an hour in junior and senior high and it varies with the school. It is around 45 minutes in some schools and a half hour in some schools.

Mr. BATES. Let us take the senior high school.

Miss Ross. There is no rule. The school I teach in gives 30 minutes for lunch. Others have 40 to 45, depending on how our classes are scheduled.

Mr. Bates. What are your hours?
Miss Ross. Nine to three.
Mr. BATES. Does that include high school?

Mr. MƯRRAY. Miss Hurley is an elementary-school teacher and Miss Ross is a high-school teacher.

Senator Cain. I keep going back to the principle, in working in concert with you of the schools, we are attempting to secure adequate salary. Everything else leaves me cold, and very cold, because I am hopeful if this country is going to continue to go anywhere, those who in your profession get adequate salary, you might work completely around the clock 5 days a week without asking favors of anybody. You are doing that because that is your profession.

If you get a good salary, we do not have to worry about what you are doing, you do it.

Mr. MURRAY. That is a most refreshing attitude, Mr. Cain, and not perhaps the one we meet most often.

Senator Cain. The only trouble with America, and I am an American and a very just critic of my own country and myself, is that people

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