Mr. MURRAY. They are Catherine G. Hurley and Josephine H. Ross, president and vice president of the teachers union.

Mr. BATES. Are you a teacher, Mr. Murray?

Mr. MURRAY. I am legislative representative for the international union and these people are officers of the local union here in the district of Columbia and are teachers themselves, and that is why I was anxious to have them here.

Mr. BATES. Are you a citizen of the District, Mr. Murray?

Mr. MURRAY. I am a citizen of the District and a home owner here and a parent with children in school.

Mr. BATES. How long have you lived here?

Mr. MURRAY. About 6 years.

Mr. BATES. You are a resident here?

Mr. MURRAY. Yes. I am interested in it as a parent, as well as legislative representative for the Public Workers, CIO.

I want to try not to repeat any information that has been supplied to the committee. As I have been listening, it has occurred to me that there is really only one basis upon which we can decide what is an adequate bill to pass.

As I see it, there is only one sound basis, and that is not in comIparison with the cost of living, nor perhaps a comparison with the salary schedules which are now in effect in other cities through the country; because as we all know, cities all over the country are facing the same problem we are facing here today, and I could go through with you, as I have brought the material, negotiations that our union is conducting with cities and States on this same problem, representing the teachers there.

I think the only sound basis, then, is what is required to make a teacher's job at least as attractive and perhaps a little more attractive than the other opportunities for employment which a teacher has, and with which we must compete in order to secure good people for our school system.

I think we all recognize that this current national recognition of the problems of teachers comes late, and comes at a time when most authorities agree that we face an emergency, and sometimes we have to wait for an emergency to really get down to business and do something.

I want to state further that the teachers have a feeling of appreciation and confidence in the School Superintendent; that through our dealings with him we know he is interested in the welfare of the District school system; and as a parent I am glad to hear him fighting in behalf of a better school system for the District.

The recommendations and things I want to talk about which we regard as shortcomings in this bill simply reflect a different kind of balancing of the factors, perhaps in relation to the three subjects I want to talk about, than the Superintendent has taken.

I think there is room for that sort of difference in balancing the factors which are involved.

I do not know, of course, the factors the Superintendent used in making his decisions, but it has already been mentioned that there were three recommendations from the legislative council which were not included in this bill.

I would like to go over and talk about those a little bit because I think they may bring out whatever other aspects are interested in that you might want to ask questions about, Mr. Bates.

The first item that we feel is not quite adequately covered-and we feel quite strongly about it-is the lack of minimum salary which meets the standard which I mentioned a while ago-the method of providing at least as good salary for teaching school as you provide for other groups of trained people.

Here in the District of Columbia the comparison is much easier, probably, than in many cities, and it is just unavoidable. The comparison must be with professional salaries in the Federal Government. The Superintendent and the chairman of the Board of Education have indicated that that is the standard that they have used, basically and primarily, in setting the minimum professional salary for teachers. However, I think now, if we are getting a bill that is going to last us, a bill that is going to correct the things we have had in the past, we should go the whole way.

Why stop $100 short of providing that equity?

We would be perfectly willing to see the salary of $2,600 instead of the $2500-odd which is the Federal P-1 salary, which is in the interest of bookkeeping, and which is much easier on the people who have to make up the pay rolls; but the fact is that anyone employed by the Federal Government in a position which requires a college degree is paid $2,600 to begin with.

If we are going to establish equity here and get these things in line, we think this bill ought to include that thing of the beginning salary,

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Now the second thing, or the second amendment, we are interested in and critical of is the omission of the legislative council's recommendation for a salary schedule C and D in class 3, and the addition of a comparable schedule for the other classes; in other words, a schedule providing additional salary for a master's degree plus 30 hours of academic work. That has been discussed here before today. Certainly, it seems to me that we want our high-school teachers to continue to teach high school, instead of to find some other avenue rather than teaching high school for advancement.

It is the same principle that applies to elementary teachers: The importance of keeping them in within the elementary system, because it is important to have the best possible teachers with young children whose whole adjustment to life is being formed in those early years. It seems to me equally important that we keep high-school teachers who are to go ahead and improve themselves in the system.

Yet, I do not see how we can expect to do that unless we provide a comparable promotional opportunity within the high-school schedule. Therefore, we are proposing that a class group C and D added to class 3, which would provide a salary of $3,500 to $1,700 per annum, and a class F which would be a promotional group of $1,800 to $5,200 per annum.

Now those schedules C and D in interest to the single salary schedule undoubtedly should also be added as group E and F to other classesthe class 2, 4, and 5-because if we are going to have a single salary schedule, we ought to have one.

The likelihood that teachers in the elementary and junior highschool groups will find it possible to avail themselves of that opportunity-I was going to say that the likelihood was small, but it probably is not small but still there will be a small number of teachers who will find it possible to avail themselves of that much additional training which is virtually equal to a doctor while they are pursuing their work in teaching elementary school.

However, it should be open to them. The greatest importance of it is providing a promotional grade for the high-school teachers, in our opinion.

The third thing that has been mentioned here-and the need for it has been indicated, though not too specifically, by several other experts-we believe that the other increments of $100 per year are inadequate. They are not very comparable with the opportunities for advancement in, for instance, industry, and they are not as high as the within-grade increments in government, which are not so high, as a matter of fact-which fall between $100 and $200, for instance, in these salary classifications.

It seems to us if these increments were made $200 each and there were half as many of them, so a teacher could advance at a rate of perhaps $4 more a week after each year, that it would provide a much better incentive and would improve the morale of the system; it would keep teachers that the $100 increments would not keep.

That means quite a bit. In the long run, when we reach the over-all cost of the bill, it would not cost any more. I think it would be good administrative procedure and would be very good for the teachers. Those are the three main changes that we feel ought to be made to make this bill meet the standard that I set out ahead of time; to equalize the kind of opportunities we offer teachers with the opportunities that we offer people in the other branches of the Federal Government and in private industry.

I would like to mention one category. You see, in a union like ours, where we include teachers in all levels and in all divisions, I have to cover ground at least briefly that the presidents of the associations have covered.

Incidentally, we work very cooperatively with them, and many of our 800 members of their professional associations you have heard here before you.

We would like to support the recommendation that was just made by the president of their association, Mrs. Ward; that the amount she suggested to you be adopted. The operations of that clause in the 1945 law has just not been satisfactory to the officers themselves. since their tasks are well-defined-and there are plenty of them-in enforcing the school attendance laws and doing a lot of other work in the process.

We think they ought to be treated as the other professionals who are nonteaching employees, as far as leave arrangements, substitute arrangements, and vacations are concerned.

I would like to point out in the case of attendance officers that though they are scheduled for 8 hours a day, 5 days in the week, they must contact the parents of children who do not come to school, and their field work is almost entirely that of working with the children them

selves and working with the parents and trying to get some understanding.

In the process of that, they can make, and to the extent they have time and opportunity-there are a very small number of them in the school system; I think there are less than 17 or something like that in the entire system.

Mr. BATES. There are 20.

Mr. MURRAY. They can make a very important contribution to controlling juvenile delinquency. The delinquency first shows up when he does not show up for school. The officers can contribute to stopping that.

They must frequently go and see the parents in the evenings. They sometimes have to go on week ends to see parents of the pupils because they are not home any other time, and officers do that on their own time. They accept that. Just as teachers work more than 8 hours a day in the school year, these people do, too. We believe they should be on a comparable basis with teachers as far as working schedules are concerned. I would like at this point to turn our part of the discussion over to the teachers here.

I think they can give you some information which I think this committee ought to have, on this question which has been raised of what is comparable with full-time employment in government in terms of hour work.

The teachers have 2 months, presumably, that they do not have to work. They are on vacation. Should that be considered in making a salary schedule?

We think it just cannot be considered, because of the special responsibilities and special nature of the work.

I would like to have a teacher talk that over with you and I think it will be useful to you.

Mr. BATES. In regard to the attendance officer, Mr. Murray, I think from a study that I have had made by the Bureau of the Census relative to the delinquency problem in the District, and the cost, say, of corrective institutions, it is relatively much higher, I believe the figures show, than comparable cities of comparable size in the country. I am wondering whether or not the school department-I say this without much thought on my part-whether or not the school department is making a mistake in having all their attendance officers women. I may be old-fashioned in my ideas, but I have had a lot of experience through life and have quite a sizable family of my own.

As I stated at the previous meeting, we used to have a truant officer who carried a cane around with him. He was an old man with whiskers and wore a badge in his lapel.

That man certainly carried the respect of youngsters going to school. While I do not say this in any critical sense about the operations of the attendance officers, I was a member of the legislature some 25 years ago when we changed that title from truant officer to attendance officer.

I do not know if these high names mean much, but nevertheless we did it at that time.

However, I am inclined to think if we are going to meet this juvenile delinquency situation we must recognize the fact that men must be

placed in some positions. I think the psychological effect is going to be worth while.

All but one of your attendance people are women. I just offer that as a little grain of thought on the part of those who are administering the school system. I think we have a place for men in that particular classification.

I am dealing, as I say, through my experience in life over 30 years in matters of this kind and, after all, the fundamental problem of truancy lies in the home. I know that when the police officer comes to the home, the father is liable to take more notice of the officer than he is of a woman who tries to come in and reason it out with him. That is an old-fashioned idea but that is what I believe in just the same.

Miss HURLEY. I think we could attract men if we had a higher salary in the attendance officers' positions.

Mr. BATES. That is true. I believe we have some rather excellent policemen here. I do not know what the relative salaries are, but there is a field for social workers. I do not mean to cast a reflection on the women who are trying to do a good job, but I think we have reached a point in the social problems of our communities.

I am dealing with this problem as a result of years of practical experience in every phase of human activities. I am drawing on that experience and it tells me that the social problems of the country, not only the District, and the District seems to be having a very aggravating problem, according to the information I have had submitted to me, that needs some attention.

I still believe in the old-fashioned officer, that he can do some good. Perhaps if he had a little education along with it, it would help some. Miss HURLEY. I hope we will notice a difference in delinquency from the teaching standpoint after our salaries are raised to the height of the presented bills here so a staff of attendance officers may not be quite so necessary.

However, I hope in the meantime we can maintain the staff and pay them enough to hold them until that time.

Mr. BATES. I agree with you, I believe this salary has been altogether too low. Although I have been a member of the District Committee, I do not recall a salary bill being submitted.

We have to have an opportunity and we happen to have had an opportunity to study it for the first time in 10 years, only because I do not think the problem has been brought to us. I can well understand that it has been altogether too long delayed.

Mr. MURRAY. I do not want to get off any further on this attendance officer problem, because I think that whatever ideas we might have on the total delinquency problem, Mr. Bates, might not contribute much to this bill, except I do not know whether I made it clear when I spoke of the amendments that we were suggesting here. I do not believe I did, I am sorry to say.

I should have those prepared for you. We think the attendance officer, together with the other nonteaching but professionals, should have the opportunity for group C and group D in the salary schedule as well as A and B.

They are now limited to A and B. That really forces me to make just one more comment on the subject, which is that I think the solving