F. Fleming, Esq.

So far as I was able to judge, they certainly improved in condition after they were allotted.

471. When the term of five years was over, do you 14 Mar. 1876. know whether many of those men engaged themselves, or what became of them?-I cannot speak on that subject, as I was so short a time in the Seychelles.

472. I did not know whether you had made inquiries as to the condition of the slaves, and what became of them ?-No.

473. (Sir Robert Phillimore.) Did you ever know an instance of the slaves in the Seychelles becoming proprietors themselves ?-No.

474. (Sir George Campbell.) You have told us that the slaves entered into a contract for five years, do you mean that there was anything voluntary in that contract, that the slaves had any option in it ?— The master and the liberated African both went before the District Judge, and the contract was explained to both parties, and then they entered into it. 475. Was the liberated African asked whether he wished to enter into this contract for five years, or not?-He was asked whether he would enter into the contract.

476. Did he always say that he wished to enter into it? I do not know that he ever said that he wished to enter into it, but I do not know any instance of his refusing to do so.

477. As a matter of fact, do you think that there was anything whatever voluntary in that contract; had the slaves any option, or were they simply made over to the masters?-The liberated African, as soon as he is in a condition to enter into a contract of service, is brought before the District Judge, and the proposed master is brought with him, and then they enter into the contract; but I do not know that the question was put to the liberated African as to whether he wished to enter into the contract or not.

478. (Sir Leopold Heath.) What would have become of him if he had refused to enter into this contract?-That I really do not know.

479. (Sir George Campbell.) Are you aware that the Coolies who are imported into the Mauritius have no option?-Most of them enter into the contracts in India.

480. A Coolie has no option when he arrives ?—No, because he has entered into his contract before he arrives.

481. Do you consider that the African has any greater option?-I cannot say what option the Coolie has in India.

482. I mean when he arrives in the island ?-I do not know what could be done with him if he did not work.

483. (Mr. Mountague Bernard.) As far as you know the question never arose ?-The question never arose. I never knew an African say "I will not enter into the contract." If that question had arisen, I do not know what would have become of him, because there is no provision for a liberated African if he does not choose to work.

484. (Sir George Campbell.) Are there interpreters who understand the language of these Africans ?— Yes, I generally found persons who could act as interpreters, and who understood the language of the Africans.

485. Do they understand the language of the Africans from the interior ?-Yes, they understood their language immediately after they were landed.

486. (Sir Leopold Heath.) You have spoken of the number of slaves for whom there is still room at the Seychelles. The cultivable land is very limited, is it not?-The size of the several islands is not very large.

487. The great mass of the land is uncultivable hill side? Yes, I think that a great portion of it cannot be cultivated.

488. Have you any idea of the number of acres which are cultivable ?—No, the only thing from which I can judge is the number of applications which were sent in for liberated Africans when any were landed.

489. When you were there did you form any

idea of the moral condition of the female liberated Africans?—I did not see sufficient of the population to judge of that, but I rather think that their moral condition was not good.

490. Do you suppose that it was worse than in any place that you have ever been in ?—I should think so. 491. (Sir George Campbell.) Do the laws prevailing in Mauritius prevail in the Seychelles also?-To a great extent. They have now power in the Seychelles to pass certain regulations affecting the Dependency-which is to a certain extent separated. Sir Arthur Gordon took a great interest in the Seychelles, and he had a Protector of liberated Africans appointed, whose duty it is to go from island to island and to look after the liberated Africans. They have a board of Civil Commissioners who pass local regulations. One of the Civil Commissioners at Seychelles is a merchant. The Board of Civil Commissioners is composed of the Chief Commissioner, the District Judge, the Government Medical Officer, and two or three unofficial members.

492. Are the unofficial members always planters ? -Either planters or merchants. The best officers who can be found in the Dependency, are members of the board; but the board is quite new. It was instituted in Sir Arthur Gordon's time, only two or three years ago.

493. In your time were there any freed Africans in the Seychelles ?-Yes, when once the five years contract is over they are free.

494. Are not those freed Africans subjected to the rules to which the freed Coolies are subjected in Mauritius?-They are not subjected to the same rules. I cannot speak with certainty upon the question, as I saw very little of the Africans in the Seychelles who had completed their five years, those that I had most to deal with were Africans still under the contract of service.

495. But there are free Africans there ?-I believe there are.

496. You do not know however?-I cannot say with certainty whether there are any restrictions imposed upon the Africans after the expiration of the five years, but I know that they enter into the contract of service for five years, and when their five years are up I presume that they are free.

497. Are they really free, or are they subjected to the same pressure as the Mauritius Coolies, who are supposed to be free, are subjected to ?—I am unable to speak for certain upon that point, as there may be regulations in force of which I have no knowledge.

498. (Chairman.) Had you ever a complaint brought before you from a free African ?—I do not remember one.

499. (Sir Leopold Heath.) Supposing that a liberated African wished to return to his own home, or at all events to some town on the main land of Africa, practically would he have any chance of ever doing so?-Do you mean so long as he is under contract of service?

500. Is there any means of his getting out of this isolated condition after the termination of the contract? I suppose that it would depend upon the amount of money which he had.

501. (Sir George Campbell.) What are the terms of the contract of service?-I do not exactly remember the items now, but the master is obliged to pay the man so much, and is obliged to feed him. The articles of food are mentioned in the contract.

502. (Mr. Mountague Bernard.) Does it limit the hours of labour?-The hours of labour are limited.

503. (Sir Henry Holland.) And the master is obliged to give the man hospital treatment ?—Yes. The contract of service is very similar to the contract of service which is passed with the immigrants in Mauritius.

504. (Sir George Campbell.) Have you any idea what the rate of pay is ?-I really do not remember, but I think that the rate of pay would begin probably

at three to four or five rupees a month besides food. I do not remember the exact amount of pay.

505. (Mr. Mountague Bernard.) How do they live? Have they separate huts? I do not know; I never noticed the manner in which they lived.

506. (Sir George Campbell.) Can you tell us whether they do save money?—I cannot say, I had no time to go round the country, nor to see their condition, it was not of course my duty to do so, I merely had to decide the cases which came before me.

507. Are all the labourers in the Seychelles Africans, or are there Coolies also ?-There are very few Indians.

508. (Sir Leopold Heath.) Is the French missionary school still flourishing ?-Yes.

509. Do you know how many liberated children there are there?—I cannot say how many there are, but I know that there are a great number, because I very often saw them going to church.

510. Are there any now in our own clergyman's school? Yes, but a much smaller number.

519. It would not interfere commercially ?-Commercially, I should say not. When I say, commercially," I mean that the persons who were employed in the trade would not be reduced in number in consequence of any interference with slavery, for the persons who are employed are not slaves.

522. (Sir George Campbell.) Is there no importation of coolies ?-None whatever.

523. Never ?-Never.

524. Have you been in Madagascar ?-I was in Madagascar 14 years ago. Of course I am not prepared to say whether, in the event of any interference with domestic slavery, the Madagascar Government would not close their ports; I cannot give any opinion upon that point.

525. Do you know anything of the nature of the institution of slavery in Madagascar ?—I was there 14 years ago.

526. What was the character of the slavery in Madagascar then?-That was the first time that I had seen slavery, and it appeared to me to be of a very mild form.

527. Is it a universal institution; are a large proportion of the inhabitants slaves?—I cannot say what proportion, but it is quite a universal institution.

528. Are the indigenous inhabitants of Madagascar slaves to the upper classes ?-The slaves are mostly indigenous. I do not think that I have ever seen one slave who was imported, but my experience has only been on the east coast, where I believe there have never been any slaves imported; it is on the west coast that slaves have been imported into Madagascar.

521. What is the nature of the trade? The principal trade is in bullocks, which are used in Mauritius for beef. So far as I can tell you at present (I have not lately had before me many documents on the subject), I believe that the number of cattle is about 10,000 annually, and that the value is about 60,000l. There is also rice to the value of about 10,000l., and there are Indianrubber and other articles to the value of about 70,000l., making in all a total of about 140,000l. per annum.

That is the trade from Madagascar to Mauritius. On the other hand, I presume that if there was any interruption in trade it would act both ways, and that the trade also from Mauritius to Madagascar would be equally interrupted. From Mauritius to Madagascar there are imported every year cotton goods (chiefly what are called Manchester goods) to the amount of 60,000l., and other goods to the amount of 50,000l., and the balance of trade between the two places, amounting to about 30,000l., is made up in specie.

mission, that if they desire to have the best information upon the subject of domestic slavery in Madagascar, I believe that they cannot do better than apply to the Reverend Dr. Mullens, who is Secretary to the London Missionary Society. Since I was there, a great improvement has been made in the civilization of the country, and that is entirely owing to the efforts of that particular society.

529. Are there any liberated slaves in Mauritius -I do not mean the old slaves of Mauritius-but are there any liberated Africans who have been captured in modern days ?-Yes, a few.

530. In Mauritius itself as distinguished from the Seychelles ?—Yes.

531. What is their position?-Their position is now like that of any other men in the country. 532. Are they free men ?-Perfectly free.

533. They are not apprenticed or bound?—No; the last were brought there in the year 1869, and their term of five years would now be up.

534. Are they not subject to the laws which affect the coolies?No.

535. Not at all?-Not at all. 536. They are treated entirely as free men ?—Yes; when once their term of five years is over.

537. They are apprenticed for five years?--They

are.

538. That, I suppose, is a compulsory apprenticeship? That is a compulsory apprenticeship.

539. There was a very considerable reform in the Seychelles in the condition of these people in Sir Arthur Gordon's time, was there not?-1 am not aware that any great reforms were made, it is not within my knowledge.

540. (Sir Henry Holland.) You have been Colonial Secretary for several years at Mauritius, and have also temporarily administered the government at Mauritius ?-I have.

541. During that time have you had any complaints made of the treatment of these liberated Africans at the Seychelles?-I have not had any.

542. Probably if any complaints had been made they would have come under your notice either as Colonial Secretary or as administering the government? They would certainly have done so.

543. Have not the governors, who have been from time to time in Mauritius, visited Seychelles?-Yes.

544. Did they make regular visits there? Yes. Sir Arthur Gordon was three years Governor of Mauritius, and he spent a considerable time each year in the Seychelles, and Sir Arthur Phayre, the present Governor, was there in the months of September and October for, I believe, six weeks.

545. And any complaints made of the treatment of these people in the Seychelles would have been sure to have been brought to the notice of the Governor ? -Yes.

546. (Sir George Campbell.) Then am I to understand that Sir Arthur Gordon did not receive any complaints, and did not see anything to find fault with?—I cannot say that. I have reason to believe

that he did find fault, or nstance, he thought it necessary to appoint an inspector, and he did appoint. an inspector.

547. Can you state what faults he found ?—The faults were chiefly, I believe, that the people were not well looked after, that the wages were not paid as they should be, and that the rations had not been properly served out. I think that those were the chief faults which he found, and he therefore thought it necessary to appoint an inspector. I would refer the Commission to a despatch of Sir Arthur Gordon's which has been already laid before Parliament. I think that it is dated the 16th of January 1873. It was called for in consequence of a charge made by Mr. Stanley, the African traveller, against the inhabitants of the Seychelles, and Sir Arthur Gordon was at the Seychelles, I believe, when he got the despatch upon the subject. He went fully into the charge, and his answer is to the effect that the statements made by Mr. Stanley were altogether erroneous and unfounded.

548. (Sir Leopold Heath.) I take it that liberated Africans once in the Seychelles practically remain there for their lives?-They do.

549. Have you any knowledge of your own, as to the moral condition of these liberated Africans after their apprenticeship has been served in the Seychelles? -No, I have no knowledge of any own upon that point.

550. Have you ever heard any opinion expressed, either favourable or unfavourable, to their moral condition in the Seychelles?-I have heard an opinion unfavourable to their condition.

551. (Sir George Campbell.) You can give us a positive assurance that after their apprenticeship is out they are really and truly free?-They are as free as I am.

552. They are not subjected to any of the restrictions to which the coolies are subjected?-Not in the least.

553. (Chairman.) You were in command of the police at Bombay ?Yes.

554. From what date?-From July 1855 up to the 11th of April 1864.

555. Not since then ?-No, I retired from the service in 1864.

or

556. During the time that you were connected with the police at Bombay, had you any reason to think that there was any smuggling of slaves into India?— Certainly not through Bombay, because the checks. that we kept up, I think, were very effective. Any boat that happened to come from Zanzibar from the Persian Gulf used to be boarded by one European and half a dozen or more native constables, and a thorough search used to be made, and in the event of there being any persons on board whose presence led to any suspicion with regard to their being slaves, they used to be taken into custody and brought at once, with those in whose possession they were found, to the police office. An inquiry used to be gone through, and in the event of there being any reason to think that the case was at all doubtful, or if the men themselves said that they had been taken into custody and illegally detained, they used to be set at liberty at once.

557. Had you ever any cases where you did find persons who had been so captured, and did give them their liberty?-I think that I have had several cases of that kind.

558. Then there was some attempt to import slaves?--There were one or two attempts, as far as I can remember; but slaves used to be brought there at different times who had been captured on the high seas; some of the government boats used to bring in slaves that they had captured, and those slaves were set at liberty at once.

559. You have said that there was no smuggling of slaves into Bombay, but had you reason to think that there was smuggling of slaves into other ports of the Indian territory ?-Not that I know of. I had no reason to think so.

560. We have been told that boats would arrive at Bombay and that a number of women in veils were landed and taken through the town and carried off into the country. You saw nothing of that kind ?—— I think that the police supervision which was maintained during the time that I was in charge of the police, was of a character to have prevented anything of that kind; or in the event of anything of that kind having been attempted, I think that it was sure to have fallen under the notice of the police, and to have been officially reported.

561. Then your belief is that nothing of the kind was attempted ?-Certainly my belief is that nothing of the kind could have taken place. I think that I might state that previously to my time, it was usual to make over these slaves to Mahomedans, to anybody who chose to have them, and there was at all times rather a large requisition for them.

562. (Sir George Campbell.) You refer to captured slaves? Captured slaves; there was always a large requisition for them from the Mahomedan population. My predecessors, I know, used to make them over to the Mahomedans. After I had been in Bombay for a few months, I thought that it would be more advantageous to them if something else could be done by way of enabling these captured slaves to earn their own livelihood. The Reverend Mr. Price, who had then established a school in order to teach the Christian boys in connexion with the mission different trades, was residing with me. I happened to mention the circumstance of these slaves to him, and he very kindly

immediately offered to take charge of them, and ever after that those slaves who were brought to Bombay I sent off to him.

563. (Sir Henry Maine.) That, I suppose, was the school at Nasik? That was the school at Nasik ; and it was from that school that Dr. Livingstone, when he went to Africa, took 15 or 20 lads with him; and Wainwright, who brought the remains of Livingstone here, was one of the boys whom I had sent to Nasik.

564. What test did you apply to distinguish whether a man was a slave or not; did you take it upon his own assurance ?—I could only question him upon the subject.

565. (Mr. Fitzjames Stephen.) Is it not a very serious crime according to the Indian Penal Code to import slaves?-Certainly.

566. It would be kidnapping?—Yes.

567. And it would subject any person who was found guilty of it to a severe punishment ?-In the event of there being clear evidence upon the subject, the party would be taken before the magistrate and very severely punished.

568. (Sir George Campbell.) Apart from the slave trade, did not many dhows come into Bombay with slave crews?-In the event of a dhow coming into Bombay with a crew who were entirely slaves, they were sent for at the police office, and were questioned as to whether it was their wish to remain on board or not. They used to declare that they were not slaves, and that they received their pay; and in the event of their expressing a strong desire to remain as they were, they were of course allowed to do so.

569. Suppose they had said that they were slaves? -I do not remember a single instance in which they said that they were slaves. If they said that they were slaves, they would immediately be told that they were at liberty to go.

570. They would be told that, although they did not come on shore?—Yes, in the event of there being the least suspicion, a European constable and half-adozen native policemen went on board. This, in fact, was the practice in respect to every dhow. Those on board used to be very strictly questioned, and in the event of the European constable or any of the native policemen having reason to think that there was anything at all suspicious, they used to be brought on shore, and a rigid inquiry instituted, and the matter was decided according to the circumstances.

571. Had you any cases of that kind where the men turned out to be slaves and claimed their freedom -I do not mean men imported for slave purposes, but sailors on board these dhows?-There may have been one or two cases where a man has said, "I have been "employed here, but do not wish to remain any "longer," and he has been told, "Very well, you can "give it up, you are at liberty to go."

572. (Sir Henry Maine.) Do you know anything of a Colonel Hodgson, who has been stated to be Superintendent of a district close to Bombay?-No.

573. He has been described by another witness (see Q. 408) as having stated that the importation of slaves into Bombay did take place. You do not know who is meant ?-No.

574. (Sir Leopold Heath.) Were you in Bombay in 1867?—No, I resigned in 1864; at least I took my pension in 1864.

575. (Sir Henry Maine.) You were succeeded by Sir Frank Souter ?-Yes.

576. You have no reason to believe that he altered the system?-No; on the contrary, I have reason to suppose that he kept it up in full vigour.

577. (Sir Henry Holland.) Have you any reason to suppose that you initiated a new system ?-No, I initiated no new system, with the exception that I mentioned just now.

578. (Sir George Campbell.) You know nothing of Kutch and Kattywar ?—No.

579. (Sir Leopold Heath.) In 1867 the Commodore of the Indian station wrote to the Government of Bombay, stating that he was informed that "all. "the crews of the Bombay dhows are slaves belong"ing to people at Zanzibar." Thereupon the Government called upon Mr. Souter to report, and he reported as follows: "After consulting with the "Commissioners of Customs, the Deputy Commis"sioner of Customs, and the Deputy Commissioner "of Water Police, an officer of long experience in "the harbour, I am of opinion that the crews of the "Arab dhows arriving at Bombay are not slaves; they are constantly on shore, and never complain of "undue restraint, though they have every oppor"tunity of doing so; and in this opinion the Com"missioner of Customs has authorised me to say that "he fully agrees." You had left Bombay a year or two before that time ?-Three years before that time.

66

580. Does

affairs, or your views of the state of affairs, when you that correctly represent the state of left?-Exactly.

581. (Mr. Rothery.) Were you there when some of the liberated Africans were taken from Aden to

Bombay ?-In what year was that?

582. I cannot tell you in what year it was, but in any year. The dhows were originally taken and condemned at Aden at the time when you were at Bombay, and the slaves were left there, and were thence transported to Bombay ?-That might have occurred, and I must have done the best I could to provide for them.

583. But were those the slaves to whom you were referring, slaves that had been liberated, and not slaves that were attempted to be imported for the purpose of continuing their slavery?-No; slaves that used to be sent from Aden, or any other part, when they landed in Bombay were of course immediately placed under the police, that is to say, they were sent to me.

589. What was the real effect?-There was a law promulgated whereby children born after a particular time were to be considered free; and all aged negroes after the age of 60 were to be considered free. As regards the children, the effect of that law can scarcely be said to have come into operation yet; how it will be carried out I do not know. With regard to the aged negroes, the difficulty will be to oblige the owners to give the true age; and the fear that I have is, that negroes of really 60 years of age, if they are at all valuable slaves, will be reported as 56 or 58.

590. While you have been at Havana have you seen anything of fugitive slaves getting on board ships?— There has been no instance of any fugitive slave, during the time that I have been at Havana, getting on board a ship and claiming his freedom.

591. There have been British vessels in Havana ?Constantly. During the winter we have generally one, or perhaps two, English ships of war there, and occasionally the Admiral calls with his fleet, and during the whole year Havana is one of the stations where they call. During the winter English ships of war are more permanently there.

592. But there have been no instances of slaves taking advantage of that circumstance in any way to escape to them?-I have never heard of any instance in Havana, nor any instance in the other ports, of a fugitive slave really claiming his freedom, and I think that I am right in saying that it does not happen.

593. Do the slaves there seem to be well treated upon the whole? That is a very wide question. Gross cases of cruelty have never come before me, but during the time of the crop in Cuba all the slaves are overworked. May I make an explanation?

594. Certainly?-Unlike our own West India Islands, where the crops are taken off with great care, the crop in Cuba is never altogether taken off. Therefore, during January, February, and March, before the rains come on, the great point with all the planters is to get as much as possible of the crop off, the consequence of which is, that during January, February, and March I should say the slaves are worked too long; they often work 18 hours a day. I do not mean to say that they accomplish during those 18 hours very hard work, such as would be accomplished by a relay of slaves, but it is overwork.

595. You have been, I think you say, for seven years at Havana?-A little more than seven years. I was appointed in November 1868; was promoted from Spain, where I had been serving before.

596. While you have been at Havana have you seen indications of there being any slave trade; any slaves imported ?—I have seen none; but two or three times since then reports have reached me of slave cargoes having been landed. In Cuba it is exceedingly difficult to get trustworthy or reliable evidence upon such subjects. I do not think that many cargoes have come in since 1868; and during the last five years I think I am right in saying that not more than one or two have come in. During the last three years I think there have been none. The consequence of that is, that there is a very great demand for slave labour in Cuba. Slaves have increased in value.

597. Are slaves publicly sold there ?—Yes. 598. What is the price of a slave ?-When I left, last year, a good field hand would bring 3007.

599. A slave?-Yes, perhaps more; but I ought to explain, if I may be permitted, that those persons in Cuba who possess slaves who have no field labour for them, hire them out, and last August there was currently paid in Cuba from the planters 30 dollars and even 40 dollars a month in gold for the hire of a slave; that included his food and raiment, such as they give, and doctor's expenses; 30 dollars is 67., that is to say, that the proprietor of a slave could get 727. a year for

the services of the man, he having nothing to do with him, the man being provided for by the hirer. 600. So that the proprietor got a clear profit of 727.? -Yes.

601. Slavery having so long continued there, are the slaves not prolific, or how is it that there is not a more abundant supply of labour?-That is a difficult question to answer. On the estates in Cuba, a negro is not only a slave but he is a prisoner. Every night at a particular hour, 8 o'clock I think, he is shut up in the barracoon, which is locked and guarded by dogs and armed men, therefore he has little opportunity of knowing more than what he learns under the eye of the administrator of the driver. Sometimes there is a great scarcity of women amongst them. It is a very sad and a very revolting question, but the negro slaves in Cuba are certainly diminishing.

602. (Sir Henry Holland.) Are they allowed to marry?-Certainly.

603. Is any objection made to their marrying ?None.

604. Are the married slaves shut up in this way too?—Yes.

605. (Sir Henry Maine.) These seem to be precautions against escape. Then do the slaves occa

sionally escape?-Very rarely.

606. Not even to the hills?—No. These men are not like our slaves formerly in the West Indies. Our slaves in the West Indies years ago all inhabited a negro village near the estate. In the negro village they also had provision grounds allotted to them, to which they could go on one day in the week, and they also had the Sunday to attend to their provision grounds. I speak particularly of Jamaica. They were therefore farmers, poulterers, and gardeners as well as slaves. That is not so in Cuba. There is little temptation for a slave to run away in Cuba, he would starve if he ran away.

607. (Chairman.) He would have no means of living? If he were not interfered with he might work in a garden and grow his plantains, or something of that kind, and therefore not die of starvation, but it would be very difficult for him to do so.

608. (Mr. Rothery.) There are not any negroes in Cuba similar to those whom I remember in Cayenne called the Nemaya who ran away into the interior ?— I think not.

609. In Cayenne where there were large forests behind the colony they used frequently to run away? -Yes; they had there a large back ground.

610. It is not so in Cuba ?-To a certain extent there are wild grounds to which they might run away, but I think that there are very few runaway slaves in Cuba.

611. (Sir Henry Maine.) Have you heard of the éscape of slaves to ships of any other nationality except the British ?—I have not.

612. (Sir Leopold Heath.) You have said that the law as to children being emancipated after 1870 has not been carried out. Do you mean that the effect of that law has not yet shown itself?—Yes; I am not quite certain of the date.

613. It was in 1870?-The law was, that until they were 18 years of age they were to be what is called under a patron.

614. Apprenticed?-As it were apprenticed, and that then they were to be free.

615. You have no reason to suppose that when these children reach the age of 18 they will not be made free?—I have no reason to doubt that they ought to be made free.

616. But do you not think that they will be made free?-It depends entirely upon affairs in Spain. Just now Cuba is in a very peculiar state; there is an insurrection, and the insurrection has been scarcely dealt with at all by the Spaniards; they have been fighting for many years and have made very little way. The possession of the Island of Cuba has been preserved for Spain by what are called the Casinos Españoles, who are principally composed of planters and slave-owners. Therefore Cuba has been saved to