It would depend upon their own initiative and ambition whether they wanted to keep the grazing rights and develop and protect them. Mr. NICHOLSON. Oliver Pooler. Senator METCALF. Mr. Pooler, proceed in your own way. STATEMENT OF OLIVER POOLER, COLVILLE BUSINESS COUNCIL Mr. POOLER. Mr. Chairman, I don't have a prepared statement, but I would like to talk as everybody else has been permitted to do. A lot has been mentioned before about the poverty that will be on the reservation if this bill is enacted. We all know that there will be some that will squander the money, but it is my firm belief that a large majority of the people will use their money to better their economic standing. Then a lot was said about schools before. It would seem to be implied that if the reservation were terminated, the Indian schoolchild would be greatly handicapped. Well, this is not my belief at all. If the National Forest Service took over the timber sales on the reservation, 25 percent of their proceeds go to the counties for roads and schools. I know in my county if they were to receive $300,000 from the proceeds of timber sales, they would have money running out of their ears. The schools would be modernized and adequate transportation would be given to those in outlying districts. At the present time the public schools do not deny access to the schools for the Indian child. If the parent is conscientious, he will see to it that his child gets to school, and the counties and the State take care of the transportation. Something was mentioned about grazing rights. Mr. Snider said that he knew that there would be no change. Well, it would be faulty for the Forest Service to eliminate all grazing on the reservation. At the present time on what we call the north half of the reservation, which is part of the Colville National Forest, there are just as many cattle running on the range there as there are on what we call the south half which we still have. So there will be no problem with the people, the ranchers in our area, I know. I am a logging contractor at Keller, Wash., on the river, and I have logged for the Forest Service and on the reservation. I have found, and I think Mr. Rickard could verify that too-he also is a logging contractor-that the volume of marked timber per acre in the national forest has always been greater than the volume marked by the Department of Interior Bureau of Indian Affairs. I have always done a better job in cooperation with the Forest Service rangers. They have been very considerate with me, and they seem to get a lot more work done with a very small percentage of men. That I think has been one of the worst costs on our reservation-not getting the full utilization out of the forest. For example, on my job many times a member will leave Grand Coulee and get to my job, a forestry member will, and get to my job about 10 o'clock in the morning. He will mark timber for about an hour. Then he will have to walk back to the pickup, eat his lunch. He will go back up in the woods about 1 or 1:30. Then he will return about 2 or 2:30, then he will have to quit to drive clear back. This gives him an actual worktime of between 3 and 4 hours, whereas in the national forest I have always noticed that they have a man out there by 7 o'clock to mark that timber, and that man puts in a full day's work. So I say again I believe the Forest Service will do a better job. It will give more money to roads and schools in our district, and therefore I am in favor of this bill S. 1413. I know that the majority of the tribal members in my district are in favor of this bill, and that includes what was mentioned before, several fullbloods too. In fact, in speaking of squandering the money, one fullblooded Indian told me the other day, he said, "I may go out and squander my money too." But he said, "It is better to have lived than not to have lived." Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator METCALF. Let me ask you, Mr. Pooler, about the schools. Now as I understood it from the testimony of Mr. Nash this morning, the schools were receiving support money. They weren't receiving any under Public Law 874. Mr. POOLER. No. Well, the schools are receiving support money just the same way Senator METCALF. You would get it from the Johnson-O'Malley Act. Mr. POOLER. That is correct. Senator METCALF. Now suppose this termination bill goes through. Won't there be a substantial loss in revenue to the schools as a result of the fact that there is a provision that these people are no longer Indians and there is no longer a Johnson-O'Malley obligation? Mr. POOLER. Not only do the Indians come under this act. I believe if you live on Federal ground Senator METCALF. That is Public Law 874. Mr. POOLER. Well, then 874 is the law they would come under. If you live on Indian ground or Federal ground Senator METCALF. Under Public Law 874? Mr. POOLER. Right, or if your folks are employed on Federal ground you also qualify under 874. Senator METCALF. That is correct. Mr. POOLER. So much of this money will be Senator METCALF. It will be forthcoming anyway. Mr. POOLER. Forthcoming anyway, yes. Senator METCALF. Go ahead, Senator Fannin. Senator FANNIN. I was just wondering is there a differential if you are receiving Federal funds under the Johnson-O'Malley or Public Law 874 or 815, is there a differential as far as the contribution by the county and the State? Mr. POOLER. Yes; there is a little differential, but it isn't very big. Senator FANNIN. The percentage is very small? Mr. POOLER. Yes. Senator FANNIN. In other words, you would receive an additional amount then from the State or the county if you were not receiving the Johnson-O'Malley funds? Mr. POOLER. Yes. Senator FANNIN. Average day attendance is it or something of that nature? Mr. POOLER. Yes. But also your budget is cut to a certain extent by the State if you are receiving these other funds. Senator FANNIN. But you are not familiar with the percentage? Mr. POOLER. No; I am not. Senator FANNIN. Or the exact amount involved. Mr. POOLER. My wife is clerk of the school board, and she could have given me that material. Senator FANNIN. I wouldn't expect you to know the figures, but I just thought perhaps that you would have an idea as to whether it was a considerable amount. Mr. POOLER. No; I do not. Senator METCALF. So you believe that if this bill were enacted under the category B proposition where people get money under Public Law 874 for either living on Federal land or working on tax-exempt Federal land, the schools will get more money than you are getting under the Johnson-O'Malley provision? Mr. POOLER. With the addition of the 25 percent forest money. Senator METCALF. All of these witnesses will be kept available for questions, Senator Fannin. Is that all? Mr. POOLER. Thank you. Mr. NICHOLSON. Now we have Roy Seyler and Mary Nicholson. Senator METCALF. Miss Nicholson and Mr. Seyler will come forward. Mr. Seyler, will you start off here and make whatever statement you choose. STATEMENT OF ROY SEYLER, COLVILLE BUSINESS COUNCIL Mr. SEYLER. I think that there should be another survey of the position of the Indians on the reservation, and you will find the homes are equal to any of the white people's homes in that area. There isn't anyone so isolated that the children cannot get to school. Thank you. Senator METCALF. You do not agree that there were 122 homes unfit for human habitation? Mr. SEYLER. No, I don't believe so, sir. Senator METCALF. That was in a 1958 survey. And you feel that as a result of activity since 1958 that survey is no longer an accurate estimate? Mr. SEYLER. It is not. STATEMENT OF MARY NICHOLSON, COLVILLE BUSINESS COUNCIL Miss NICHOLSON. Senator Metcalf, committee members, ladies and gentlemen, I am here today to support this termination bill, S. 1413. At a meeting in my area March 30 of this year the people were behind this bill, S. 1413, 100 percent. This bill will give them a chance to vote on what they want to do. I know quite a few fullblooded Colville Indians who do not want to remain under this Federal ward status, and I do not believe they should be compelled to. I am against the development program, and I don't believe any Bureau plan for development would work. I do not want to be a little nation within a nation. We would like to have this chance to plan our own future and this bill gives us that chance. Senator METCALF. Thank you very much. Miss Nicholson, where do you live? Miss NICHOLSON. I live on the former north half of the reservation. Senator METCALF. What is your occupation? Miss NICHOLSON. Cattle rancher. Senator METCALF. You run cattle? Miss NICHOLSON. On the reservation. I bring them down to the reservation for the summer range. We own land. Senator METCALF. How much base land do you own? Miss NICHOLSON. 450 acres. Senator METCALF. And where do you live, Mr. Seyler? Senator METCALF. What is your occupation? Mr. SEYLER. I usually work for some of these logging operations, but they are shut down right now. Senator METCALF. So you are a logger and lumberman? Mr. SEYLER. Yes. Senator FANNIN. I would like to ask Miss Nicholson are you in agreement with Mr. Seyler's statement regarding the housing conditions on the reservation? Miss NICHOLSON. Yes, I think they are better than what the statement of Mr. Nash indicates. Senator METCALF. Do you have further questions? Senator FANNIN. Do you know whether or not there has been a survey made in recent months in that regard? Miss NICHOLSON. No, I don't think there was. Senator FANNIN. The surveys that have been referred to then were prior to the time that you are speaking about? Miss NICHOLSON. Yes. Senator FANNIN. I assume then that there have been changes, considerable changes made in regard to the housing. Miss NICHOLSON. I would say so. Senator FANNIN. Thank you. Senator METCALF. Miss Nicholson, let me ask you this. You just recently received a $350 per capita distribution. Miss NICHOLSON. Yes. Senator METCALF. Do you of your own knowledge know that some of that money was spent on housing? Miss NICHOLSON. Yes. I would say most of it was used for housing or for education. Senator METCALF. Will you agree, Mr. Seyler? Mr. SEYLER. Yes. Senator METCALF. Thank you very much. Miss NICHOLSON. We have one more witness, Pat Nugent. Senator METCALF. Mr. Pat Nugent, we are pleased to have you with the committee. Mr. NUGENT. Mr. Chairman, rather than repeat what has already been said, to save time I would just as soon pass unless there are questions you would like to ask me. Senator METCALF. You concur with the statements made by the previous witnesses? Mr. NUGENT. Yes, I do. Senator METCALF. Where do you live, Mr. Nugent? Mr. NUGENT. Inchelium, Wash. Senator METCALF. What do you do? Mr. NUGENT. I am a logger. I have worked for the same outfit for 18 years. Senator METCALF. Would you prefer to work under the supervision of the National Forest or the Bureau of Indian Affairs? Mr. NUGENT. It would be better for me because I am a log cutter, Senator Metcalf. Senator METCALF. Better for you to what? Mr. NUGENT. To work for the National. I get a better mark on the timber than what the Department of the Interior is giving the reservation. Senator FANNIN. No questions. Senator METCALF. Thank you very much. Mr. NICHOLSON. That completes our presentation. Senator METCALF. Are there any other witnesses who wish to appear on behalf of the Colville Business Council, the majority delegates? There is a witness in the back. Mr. Boyd is appearing as a minority delegate of the Colville Business Council, and I am going to call those witnesses right now. Senator FANNIN. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask a question whether or not this S. 1413 was widely circulated. You spoke of the circulation that you made of this bill, the copy of the bill proposed. How widely was that circulated? Mr. NICHOLSON. To every tribal member. We put out, publish a newspaper, and they put out editions like this for us. I believe I gave you a copy of what went out to every tribal member. That is what went out to every tribal member. Senator METCALF. And you have received returns in what quantities would you say? Mr. NICHOLSON. Oh, not too much response. I would say they all seemed pretty much in favor of it. We got no persons against it. Senator METCALF. Has there been a cross section of returns or just in limited areas, or what would you say? Mr. NICHOLSON. They have had a few meetings at different places and discussed this bill which was sent out to the members. Senator METCALF. But your statement is that the returns have been predominantly in favor? Mr. NICHOLSON. Yes. Senator METCALF. In favor of the bill? Mr. NICHOLSON. Yes. Senator METCALF. Thank you. Mr. NICHOLSON. I have phone calls from Yakima and Spokane saying they were in favor of this bill. They called at their own expense just to tell me this. Senator METCALF. Thank you. Mr. NICHOLSON. That completes our statement. I would like to send some additional testimony. (Mr. Nicholson later sent the following additional testimony :) Hon. HENRY M. JACKSON, CONFEDERATED TRIBES, COLVILLE RESERVATION, Chairman, Senate Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, DEAR SENATOR JACKSON: Please find enclosed resolution 1965-111 which was enacted by the Colville Business Council on April 8, 1965, in expression of opposition to three perfecting amendments to S. 1413 as contained in the report submitted to you by the Department of the Interior on April 2, 1965. The Colville Business Council recommends that the language of the bill, S. 1413, in |