render Catholic Emancipation pregnant with matter hostile to the conciliation of all classes of the community; the object which, next to emancipation itself, was the principal aim he had in view. He had thought it right to express the doubts which he entertained on these subjects. All he now did, however, with respect to them was to say, that he must pause before he consented to their adoption. He might be wrong in entertaining any doubt on the subject; and, if the success of the Catholic bill rested on the success of those other measures, he most sincerely hoped that he should be proved so. On the Catholic question itself he was quite clear. He considered now, as he had always considered, that considerations of expediency, no less than considerations of right and justice, demanded the adoption of the bill before the House. It stood, as it stood before it was mixed with up any other measure, on the ground of right, of expediency, almost of necessity. The safety of the empire depended on the conciliation of the people; and parliament should avail themselves of, perhaps, the last opportunity that would be offered them of granting that as a favour which might otherwise be extorted from them as a right. He rejoiced heartily that he could anticipate with confidence, that the result of that night's debate would be a majority in favour of the bill so triumphant, as to afford the best chance of its success in that other House of parliament, in which alone it had hitherto been for many years rejected. The question being put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the question." The House divided: Ayes 268. Noes 241. Majority for the second reading 27. The bill was accordingly read a second time. HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, April 22. TREASON FORFEITURE REPEAL BILL.] Lord Holland rose, pursuant to notice, to bring in a bill to Repeal the Law of Attainder and Forfeiture, in so far as the rights of others besides the persons offending were prejudiced. It was not necessary for him to state to their lordships what the law was; but, the state of public opinion was such, as induced him to think that the proper time for altering the law was now arrived. The object of the bill was, to prevent forfeiture in cases of treason from extending further than to the person and property of the offender himself, or from extending to any titles descending to others, and in all cases in which the penalty was not already so confined. As the bill he held in his hand might be considered as a bill for reviving two acts, the act of queen Anne and George 2nd., and for repealing the act of the 39th of the late king, it would be proper, in the first place, for him to move that these acts be read. Their lordships would allow the first reading to pass; and, soon after the bill should be printed, he would give notice of a day for the second reading. The acts referred to above were read pro forma, after which the bill was read a first time, and ordered to be printed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, April 22. ELECTIVE FRANCHISE IN IRELAND.] Sir R. Wilson said, that some misunderstanding had arisen in consequence of a conversation between the hon. member for Staffordshire, and the learned member for Winchelsea as to the course meant to be pursued respecting the bill for altering the Elective Franchise in Ireland; and as it was his intention to oppose the principle of the measure, he was desirous to know what course it was intended to follow? Should the discussion take place that evening upon it, it was his determination to take the sense of the House. Mr. Lyttleton said, that some misunderstanding had certainly arisen on the subject, in consequence of which, several gentlemen who had intended to take a part in the discussion, and particularly those who meant to oppose it, were not then in their places. But, it was impossible he could lose that opportunity of taking some step in the business, and he should be contented simply to ask leave to bring in the bill, and let the discussion take place on a future day. He should be sorry to be called on to make any statement, unless he had an opportunity to make a complete one. He therefore trusted the House would allow him to bring in the bill now, and take the discussion on Friday. Mr. Brougham suggested the necessity of as early a discussion as possible, in order that that explanation might be given which would either remove or confirm the doubts which were entertained of its on the exportation of butter. Day after day the price of that article would be influenced by the evidence given, or the statements made before the committee. policy. There were difficulties which a further inquiry might clear up. He was not a member of the committee himself; and had therefore, no opportunity of acquiring official information, but he knew that there were certain questions, which could be best cleared up by inquiry before a committee. He therefore hoped that an earlier day than Friday would be fixed for the second reading. Mr. Calcraft said, he was no party to this arrangement. The bill required an explanation: its object was perfectly misunderstood, and it ought to be made intelligible to the people both of England and Ireland. The bill was generally thought to enact the disfranchisement of the fortyshilling voters, but that was not its object. If it were, he would be the last to give it his support. Even those who were in the habit of daily conversing with Irish members, entertained a complete misapprehension of the objects of the bill. How strong, therefore, must be the misconceptions upon the subject in the minds of the people in general. BUTTER TRADE IN IRELAND.] Sir H. Parnell presented a petition from the Butter-makers of Doonane, in the Queen's County, praying for a repeal of the laws for regulating the Butter Trade of Ireland. Mr. Hutchinson hoped, that if a committee were appointed to investigate this subject, due notice of its formation would be given, so as to afford those who were interested in the trade an opportunity of stating their sentiments. Mr. Grattan said, that the abuses in the trade appeared to be so great, that he hoped a committee would be appointed in the present year to examine the evil, and to recommend measures for its correction. Sir G. Hill was of opinion that no new measure should be adopted respecting this trade, without a very serious and extended inquiry. Mr. S. Rice said, that the subject might be fully discussed, without altering the law this session. Mr. L. Foster felt that the subject was one of deep importance. If any alteration were made in the law, it ought to be preceded by a very minute inquiry. Sir J. Newport said, he had no objection to inquiry; but, in his opinion, it ought to take place at the commencement of next session. If the examination were now set on foot, it would have a great effect Sir H. Parnell said, that the corrupt practices carried on under the butter act were a most severe infliction on poor and industrious people. Complaints were particularly made of the butter-tasters. It had been represented to him, that those persons were often induced to neglect their duty for a bribe; that they sometimes attended to perform their functions in a state little short of intoxication; and that they often decided on the quality of the butter, not as it really deserved, but in proportion to the emolument which they were to reap from their corrupt practices. He had inquired into these points; and had found the allegations well-founded. In one instance, five guineas had been given to the wife of a butter-taster to induce her husband to certify that butter of second quality was of first quality, that it might be exported in this fictitious character. Parliament were called upon to inquire into this subject; and he could see no reason why that inquiry should not commence now. Mr. C. Grant said, that ministers were, quite ready to go into the committee, either in this, or the next session. Ordered to lie on the table. ELECTIVE FRANCHISE IN IRELAND BILL.] Mr. Littleton said, he now begged leave, on the understanding to which the House had come last night, to move for leave to bring in a bill "to regulate the exercise of the Elective Franchise in Ireland." He would, in consequence of the understanding to which he had alluded, abstain from making any observations on the introduction of this bill. He hoped, however, that an early day would be fixed for reading it a second time, when gentlemen would have a full opportunity for the expression of their opinions. To himself, it was a matter of no importance whether he opened the grounds on which he introduced this measure on the present occasion, or reserved his statement for a subsequent period. The House had come to an understanding on that point early that morning, and that understanding had been renewed this evening. The consequence was, that a vast number of members had left the House. Amongst them were many who were especially unfavourable to the views wave, at present, any further observation on the measure. In his opinion, the bill was open to the most serious objections. It was one of the most unconstitutional and arbitrary measures that ever was introduced to the House. Mr. Grattan said, he looked upon this as a very alarming proposition. Mr. Secretary Peel merely rose to say, that, in acquiescing in the motion for leave to bring in the bill, he made no concession whatever. The rule of the House formerly, was different from that which now pre leave to bring in a bill, merely for the purpose of considering what its effect was likely to be. Afterwards its contents were debated; and it might be rejected on the second reading. In consequence of the understanding which was come to last night, he would not offer any objection to the present motion: but his opposition to the measure should be precisely as decided in the stage when it came to be debated, as if he opposed its being brought in originally. which he took relative to this measure; and therefore he felt himself bound in honour simply to explain what the nature of the intended bill was. The hon. mem. ber for Wareham was of opinion, that the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders of Ireland would be a measure of a very arbitrary nature. He thanked the hon. member for having called for information on this subject; and he would take the liberty to observe, that he did not mean to extend the provisions of the bill to those freeholders who held their freeholds under the same practice that prevailed. It was now customary to grant vailed in England at this period. The bill would only refer to freeholders whose votes were subject to registration. The sum which gave to those individuals the right of voting at present, it was the object of this bill to raise. He would not state positively, although he had formed a strong opinion on the subject, how high the qualification ought to be raised; but, in his opinion, 10. per annum would be an eligible qualification; that, however, he left entirely in the hands of the House. Another point which had been alluded to, was the period at which the act should begin to operate. It might be suffered to operate forthwith; or at the period when the present registry expired, or at the termination of the several leases. He thought the end of the registration would be the proper time for the act to begin to take effect. But he felt that this was a proper matter for consideration in the committee. The hon. member then moved "That leave be given to bring in a bill to regu late the Exercise of the Elective Franchise in Counties at large in Ireland." Mr. Brougham trusted, that he might be understood, after what he had stated that morning, as not having pledged himself to support this measure. On a future day he should take an opportunity of stating his opinion on this question. Mr. Calcraft said, that if ever there was a bill brought into parliament which required the most minute detail, it was this identical bill. This he would assert, that if members in the House understood it, very few persons out of the House did. He, for one, did not understand it in detail; and therefore he was anxious for ex Mr. Brougham observed, that, in conse-planation. quence of the understanding to which it was stated the House had acceded, a number of gentlemen had undoubtedly gone away. This being the case, it would be inexpedient to go into a discussion of the measure now: but, it ought to be stated, that on this occasion, leave to bring in the bill was only called for. If there were any hon. members who wished to defeat the measure at once, they would have an opportunity of stating their arguments against it on the first reading. Mr. Bankes said, that this was a measure of so alarming a nature, that the attention of the House, and of the public, ought to be particularly called to it. He would take the first opportunity, when this bill was brought forward, to divide the House upon it; and he should therefore A Sir T. Lethbridge said, that, in his opinion, the bill which it was proposed to bring in was not at all calculated to answer the expectations which it had raised. great deal had been said about relief to the people of Ireland; but, he could not see what relief they would find in being deprived of privileges which were really valuable, and which made them of some importance, and in receiving instead of privileges, an imaginary good. An hon. friend of his, whose conversion had created so great a sensation in the House, had said, that he would not vote for the bill which had been discussed last night, unless the bill now before the House, and that for providing for the Catholic clergy, should also be carried. Now, in the common course of proceedings in parliament, the first of these bills would have passed | distinctly appealed to, he could not hesithrough all its stages before the fate of tate to express his opinion, that the irrethe other two bills could have been de gularity spoken of did not depend upon cided. The hon. member for Armagh the fact of the person to whom the allusion must, therefore, either not vote at all, or was made being present or not, although he must vote inconsistently with the de- the question of delicacy certainly did; claration he had made. because the House considered that all its Now, it was altogether disorderly to refer to the express words of a debate; and this, as he had already said, whether the member by whom they had been used was present or not. With respect to a refer Mr. Calcraft rose to order. He sub-members were present in every debate. mitted that it was neither parliamentary The question, then, was, whether it was nor delicate to allude to the words of a according to the practice of parliament to past debate; and particularly when the refer to the matter, or to the distinct member by whom those words were sup-words, of any part of a former debate. posed to have been used was not present. Sir T. Lethbridge thought he was perfectly justified in alluding to the declaration made by his hon. friend, the member for Armagh. He thought he had much more reason to complain of the interrup-ence to the subject matter of a debate, it tion of the hon. member, which imputed was the practice of the House to allow to him an intention to speak of the decla- great latitude. If it were not for the exration made by his hon. friend in an in-cuse which this practice furnished, the jurious manner an intention which he whole debate had been irregular from its altogether disclaimed. commencement; because if it was opposed to the forms of the House to refer to a former debate, it was not less so to refer to an understanding that leave should be given to bring in a bill. In his opinion, however, nothing could be so inconvenient to the progress of business in that House, as for the Speaker strictly to watch every violation of the letter of their orders. He therefore commonly left such subjects to be regulated by the general sense of the House, taking from them the hint, and declining himself to interfere, unless under circumstances likely to obstruct the public business. Mr. Wynn said, it was beyond all question contrary to the practice of parliament to allude to expressions which had been used in a debate that was past, and still more so in the absence of the member by whom they had been used. It was true, that the House allowed a great latitude beyond the strict letter of its orders; but he believed, that in no instance, after the objection had been taken, a member had been permitted to persist in violating the established custom of parliament. Mr. Secretary Peel said, there could be no doubt that a direct reference to the words of a debate was not parliamentary ; but, the hon. baronet had not done this. He had referred only to an intention expressed by the hon. member for Armagh, by which that hon. member had said he should regulate his conduct. This was very different from quoting the words in which that intention had been conveyed. Whether to do this were delicate or not, was another question, which each individual must decide for himself, but of which the House, he conceived, could take no notice. Mr. Wynn said, he thought that to refer to a declaration, as the hon. baronet had done, was not less irregular than to refer to the precise words in which it had been made; and for this reason that the person by whom it had been made being absent, he could have no opportunity of explaining or justifying what he had said. The Speaker rose amidst loud cries of "Chair." He said, that having been so VOL. XIII. Sir T. Lethbridge bowed to the decision of the Chair; but he could not avoid observing, that it was some consolation to him to know, that if he had been out of order, he was not so alone, the whole discussion being, as the Speaker had said, irregular. Still he contended, that, if the House should give the hon. gentleman leave to bring in his bill upon no other statement than that which he had made, they would do a very uncommon thing: and admit a bill, of the principle of which no one had said a word in recommendation. Dr. Phillimore said, he believed there was a general understanding, that in consequence of the late hour to which the debate of the preceding night had extended, the discussion of the principle of this bill should be postponed. For his own part, he had no doubt that the measure which it proposed to carry into effect was calculated to do away a great abuse, and to confer a lasting benefit on Ireland. K Sir J. Newport said, that notwithstanding the sentiments which the hon. baronet had expressed, he did not believe that the Catholic freeholders of Ireland would give him any credit for the new-born-zeal which he seemed to feel for their interests. They would rather be inclined to suspect that he intended, by throwing obstacles in the way, to defer the passing of that other and greater measure, of which he had been so long the opponent. For his own part, he confessed that he was most anxious to see this bill passed: and, notwithstanding the assertion of the hon. baronet, that it was hostile to the interests of the people of Ireland, he was ready to go before that people in competition with the hon. baronet, and abide their decision on the subject. He should support the measure, because he believed it would materially aid the success of the other and more important one of emancipation, and because it would prevent the demoralization of the lower orders, of which the present system was the cause. Mr. Wodehouse said, he had seconded the motion of his hon. friend the member for Staffordshire, and he saw no reason for withdrawing the support which he had given to this measure. Mr. Secretary Peel deprecated any partial discussion of a measure, which, at a proper time and season, would come regularly under the consideration of the House. as high-minded men among the 40s. freeholders, as among any other class of voters. Mr. S. Rice did not wish to prolong the discussion; but there were two important points on which he wished to be informed. The first was, whether his hon. friend meant to confine the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders only to those counties where corruption and fraud had existed? The second was, whether he considered this bill as strictly conditional upon the passing of the Catholic Relief bill. Mr. Littleton answered both these questions in the affirmative. Mr. Hume considered the bill as a matter of expediency. He wished the principle of the measure to be discussed; but, to admit the bill without discussion, was to admit also the principle. He objected to bringing in the bill that night, because the greater portion of the members had left the House, on an understanding that no discussion would take place on the subject. Lord Althorp trusted, that the bill to be brought in would prove of the greatest. advantage. The 40s. freeholders had not independent votes. He therefore considered it quite consistent with his wishing for a reform of the representation, to de prive of the right of voting those who had no independent votes. Leave was then given to bring in the bill. It was shortly after brought in by Mr. Littleton, and read a first time. SPIRIT DUTIES.] The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Spirit Duties Acts, Mr. Littleton said, he had the bill now ready to present to the House. He proposed that leave should be given for it to be printed; and he would take any day that it might be convenient for the debate on its second reading. He hoped the House would not oppose any difficulty in the way of this proposition, otherwise he must be under the necessity of meeting the dilemma in which he was placed by now giving notice of a motion on the sub-identical and intelligible footing, and to ject. Mr. Bankes would only beg, that, if any, an early day might be appointed for the discussion of the subject. Mr. Hutchinson said, he had never required any security for passing the great bill for emancipating the Catholics. Although it has been asserted, that the 40s. freeholders of Ireland were degraded men, he nevertheless felt it his duty to protect them, with as much regard to their civil rights as the highest commoners. In the instance of his own constituents, he could say, that he had found as honourable and The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he had upon a former occasion explained to the House the grounds upon which he thought it expedient to place all the laws relating to distilleries in England on one do away with the inconveniences which were daily found to result, from the circumstance of different laws prevailing in different parts of the kingdom. It would not, therefore, now be necessary for him to advance any general reasoning on the subject; and he flattered himself that the House would readily concur with him in thinking, that something was necessary to be done to effect this object. It appeared to him, that no alteration would be so effectual as that which should assimilate the distillery laws of England with those of Scotland and Ireland. He would state |