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Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Mr. BATES. And their interests are Nation-wide, in the development of the recreational facilities in the national parks of the country, but whether or not they should go down into the details of recreational facilities of a community on a community basis is another thing. I think we ought to explore that fully.

Senator Cain. There is no prejudice intended on my part. What I would like, in connection with an intended piece of legislation, is a memorandum advising us of what your cost structure would be if these facilities were made available.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes. Senator Cain. What would it do to your current 1948 recuest? Mr. BATES. And also stop the overlapping Federal expenditures in what we might call administrative costs.

Senator Cain. I think what Mr. Bates and I intend jointly to say is that we are sympathetic toward a full discussion of this problem without prejudging the problem at the moment.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I think that is the way we have been approaching this thing from the beginning. We have no criticism against Government Services, because they have done a good job and have been most cooperative with us.

Senator Caix. They run a good service, but there is an obvious duplication, and either they should run more than they are or you should run what they are presently operating.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We have an agreement with Government Services, whereby we operate the pools in the morning for free swimming and free instruction. After we remove our personnel, the pools are left

open for public use and operated by Government Services with a fee. But they have made every effort to cooperate with us on that basis. The pool program is right in the middle of our year-long recreation program for all other activities.

Mr. SMITH. May I ask: Is that on the same day at the same pool, the same swimming pool, that you would have two sets of Government employees, one employed by you and one employed by the Interior Department operating the same pool during the same day?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. The Interior Department does not staff those pools; the Government Services does it as a private operation.

Mr. Smith. There are two distinct sets of employees who operate at those pools on the same day.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right. Senator Cain. You can swim in the morning for nothing and in the afternoon it costs you to take a swim?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Mr. Bates. Who supervises the swimming pool, say, in the morning when you

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. We have a joint supervision. Government Services, Inc., has a pool manager who is in charge of a pool, or the technical operation more. Our lifeguard and our swimming instructor come on at 9 o'clock. From 9 to 10 we have swimming instruction and lifesaving instruction. From about 10:30 to 11:30 we have free swimming

Mr. BATEs. From 12, say, to 5---
Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Six or seven o'clock.

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Mr. BATES. From 12 to 6 or 7, does the GSI have their swimming instructors ?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes; our staffs have nothing to do with the operation after 12 o'clock noon.

Mr. BATEs. In other words, what is actually done is that you take your staff out and they bring their staff in.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is about right.

Senator Cain. One is purely a commercial venture, and the other is a recreational venture.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. I do not like to call it commercial, because it is a nonprofit corporation.

Mr. BATES. It is nonprofit?
Mr. Demaray is the head of that?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. He is the president of Government Services, Inc.

Mr. Bates. I have known Mr. Demaray for 25 years, and I have had many official associations with him, and I think he is a very good man; but, as Mr. Smith has said, no matter whether it is the National Parks, the Department of Interior, the War Department, the Navy Department, it has been our experience that whenever they get hold of anything they just hate to let it go; it may be that through some considerations, such as the chairman has suggested, of getting you folks together, we can work out some program that will stop this overlapping and better coordination will be gotten in your work.

Mr CHRISTIANSEN. We believe we can render a greater service because that is our responsibility; it is not secondary with us; it is our main responsibility.

Senator Cain. You are entitled to have the problems considered.
Proceed, please.
Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Commissioner Mason. Mr. Chairman, may I make the observation that the main work of GSI is in restaurants, and that they have isolated restaurants out of the District, and make up the deficit out of these facilities.

Senator Cain. That may be very true, but I think we listened to figures which indicated that only a hundred-odd thousand dollars had been made over a period of approximately 20 years.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. According to their statistics.

Commissioner Mason. But that accounts for credit for losses on other operations.

Mr. Bates. When you say "out of the District” do you mean they operate all over the country?

Commissioner Mason. At the Pentagon; out in the canals.
Mr. BATES. It is a Nation-wide service.

Senator Cain. I think they would be as interested as you and we are in discussing this problem.

Mr. BATEs. Yes. We would like to have it discussed. I do not think we would want to criticize the National Park Service, because I think most of us are very familiar with the character of work they do all over the country, and it is on a very high level.

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. That is right.

Mr. BATES. But as the Commissioner said here, whether or not they are utilizing properties within the District, and therefrom deriving

a profit from which they make up the deficiencies in the operating costs of some units, say, out in Yellowstone or somewhere else

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. It is very involved; it is illogical for us to get into the specific elements.

Senator Cain. It is easy to understand how they or anybody else would not be interested in taking any positive action. It is a part of their component operation.

Mr. BATES. Your Department does not make a contribution to the Federal Government that may be considered as part of the expenses of the District over and above what you would have in a normal community?

Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Our contributions to the Government, if you use that expression, are primarily rendering recreation services to employees of the Government.

Mr. BATES. I know, but those are residents of the District.
Mr. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes; only as residents, that is all.

Senator CAIN. I would address an observation to the Commissioners. From what I have gathered in these interesting days of testimony, I think it would be helpful to Mr. Bates and to myself and to the other members of the joint committee if each one of the department heads, Mr. Commissioners, who has thus far testified and will testify in the future, will prepare a one-page-not exceeding one page-standard-sized paper, summary of the highlights of their testimony, so that we shall have as niany single pages when we get through as we have more voluminous testimony from the individuals who have testified, because from those summaries we can go right to the meat of the problem.

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I would have a suggestion that they make enough copies so that there will be enough for each of us to take home with us.

Senator CAIN. Yes.

Mr. BATES. Mr. Commissioner, in addition to what the chairman has said in regard to the one-page summary, I hope that you are keeping in mind that what we want also is a brief summary from each department, setting forth whatever contributions are being made to the Federal Government in the form of services.

Now, a second thought: We have had many figures thrown at us during these hearings. We would like to have a recapitulation of every department head who has appeared here. It is all in the testimony; we do not want to wade through it, but if you would provide this committee also with a complete tabulation, so far as you are able to do it, and then as the department heads have already done, of the expenditures in each of those departments in '37, and then, say, '40, then '45, and then the estimate of '48, so that we can quickly get from that testimony the increases of the cost in those departments over the period of years, and then the over-all cost of the Government-I think we have that here anyway, for 37, '40, '45—and then bring it down to the last 3 years, 46, 47, and the estimate for '48, that would be of great help to the committee.

Senator Cain. The great question that the Congress is going to ask is why do you want so many millions of dollars more in 1948 than you apparently got along with reasonably well in 1947. So we have to have that background.

Mr. Bates. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, to the representative of the District Auditor's office that I have a complete tabulation of personnel in the District of every department since '37, up to and including the estimate for '48, and I would like to have the City Auditor just separate each department's sum total as to the number of employees in the entire department. You have got them broken down by divisions here, and I will turn this sheet back to you; and also the expenditures for personal services; and then follow through and give us the entire expenditures for that department for that period of years, and type it out, and you had better make an extra carbon copy, and we will have it photostated.

Senator Cain. Is the gentleman who will testify for the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board available-Mr. Payne!

Mr. Witness, will you be good enough to provide the reporter with your name and proper title, and then proceed in your own way?

(Statement later received for the record from the District of Columbia Recreation Department.)

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The District of Columbia Recreation Board was created in 1942 by Public LAW 534 (77th Cong.) for the purpose of unifying the District's far-flung recreation system.

1941: The increase in 1944 over 1943 was due to 21 new positions, allocation of 27 unclassified positions, increase in temporary employment, War Overtime Pay Act, increase in transfer to National Capital Parks, and increase in capital outlay.

1945: This year's increases were for 9 new positions, increase in temporary employment, War Overtime Pay Act, increase in transfer to National Capital Parks, and increase in capital outlay.

1946: Increases this year represent the Federal Employees Pay Act, increase in temporary employment and increase in transfer to National Capital Parks.

1947: The increase over 1946 was the Federal Employees Pay Act, 5 new positions, increase in temporary employment, increase in transfer to National Capital Parks, and increase in capital outlay.

STATEMENT OF ALAN W. PAYNE, CHAIRMAN, ALCOHOLIC BEVER

AGE CONTROL BOARD, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, WASHINGTON, D C

Mr. PAYNE. My name is Alan W. Payne, and I am chairman of the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board.

I have a very brief statement, Mr. Chairman, and I would be glad to submit the brief table which you request.

Senator CAIN. Thank you.

Mr. PAYNE. The increases in the operating costs of the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board in the last 10 years have been due almost solely to increases in personal services. In fact, expenses other than personal service have increased in the amount of only $1,277.

The total appropriation in 1937 for the Board and all its staff was $10,000 of which $31,192 was for salaries and $9,208 for other obligations. Including the 3 members of the Board, the total number of employees was 12.

The Board is composed of three members, citizens of the community, appointed for a period of 4 years by the District Commissioners.

At that time, however, in addition to the Board's two inspectors, eight officers of the Metropolitan Police Department were permanently assigned to Board work. If the cost of their salaries were added to the total Alcoholic Beverage Control Board operational expenses for that year, as it should be, the sum of $19,200 should be added to the payroll cost, making a total of $50,392.

In 1943 fiscal year, another inspector was added to the staff; in 1944, one clerk was added; in 1945, seven inspectors were added to the staff, the eight police officers having previously been withdrawn.

In 1946, one messenger was added to the staff. The total appropriation for 1947 was $79,307, of which $74,156 was for salaries and $5,151 for other obligations. The 1947 total will be increased by the sum of $5,700, which is included in a supplemental appropriation for the current year which has not yet been approved, and which is to cover the amount of pay-roll increases authorized by the Federal Employees' Pay Act of 1946, which went into effect July 1, 1946– Public Law 390 of the Seventy-ninth Congress.

The total appropriation for the fiscal year 1948 requested by the Board originally was $94,400, which included a request for two additional clerical assistants and a small amount for other obligations. These increases, however, were not favored by the Board of Commissioners, who reduced our request to $89,600 in the appropriation bill now before the Congress.

Thus, it is patent that the major portion of the 10-year increase of cost of personal services has been due to the pay increases of July 1, 1915, and of July 1, 1946.

There have also been, of course, increases incidental to the operation of the Meade-Ramspeck Act for periodic within-grade promotions.

Mr. BATEs. That is an increase of well over 100 percent, and your salaries and wages have only increased by 40 percent, have they not, during that period of time?

Mr. Smith. That includes the transfer of the police oflicers.

Mr. BATEs. What I am saying is this: That he attributes this increase in costs to the increase in wages. Now, if the increase is in personnel plus increase in wages, then I probably will go along with him. But the increase of cost of personnel from 37 to 48, inclusive, which is over 100 percent, is it not, and cannot be attributed to any increased wage structure?

Senator Cain. I may have misunderstood you. You contend that you had six or seven policemen on loan.

Mr. PAYNE. Yes, sir.

Senator Cain. They went back to the source of their origin and you replaced them with people of your own on your own pay roll, whose salaries you were covering, and that would constitute quite an item.

Mr. PAYNE. Yes, sir. Mr. BATES. Restate the last sentence that you read there, will you, please? Due to the increase in pay, and so forth.

Senator Cain. You refer to the pay acts of 1945 and 1946.
Mr. PAYNE. I was referring to the Meade-Ramspeck Act.
Mr. BATEs. Before that—the preceding paragraph.

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