Mr. BATES. On the basis of the per capita population, have you any figures to show how it compares with the other cities with respect to patrolmen, on the per capita basis?

Mr. THOMAS. I know that the formula indicated by the leading authorities on police administration throughout the country, particu larly emanating from the chiefs of police international associationthe accepted formula with respect to population concerning police is 2.5 policemen per 1,000 population.

I have here some information which I think will be more or less interesting.

In 1910, we had 731 policemen. We had a population of 331,069 at that time, and our police ratio was 2.2 per 1,000 population.

Over a period of 10 years, to 1920, we increased our force by 168 men to a total of 899. The population increased 106,402 making a total of 437,571, dropping us to a 2.0 per 1,000 population.

From 1920 to 1930, we had an increase in personnel of 363. Our population in that period, from 1920 to 1930, increased less than any other similar period of time since 1910, or during my residence of 28 years. This increase in population was 49,298 in that period, up to 1930, which made a total of 486,869. With an increase of 363 policemen over this period of 10 years, our ratio was 2.5 plus per 1,000 population.

At that time, we were doing very nicely with that ratio, and getting excellent results.

Another 10-year period, of course, brings us to 1940. We then had 1,422 policemen. The increase in this period of 10 years was 160. The total population in that year was 663,091. That gave us a ratio of 2.3 per 1,000, and dropped us from 2.5 to 2.3.

Now, with the estimated population of the Census Bureau in 1945 as 938,476 persons in the District of Columbia, we need additional men if we are to be near the prescribed ratio.

Mr. BATES. When did the Census make that estimate?

Mr. THOMAS. We asked for that figure some time ago and it was given to us through the Census Bureau. These are really Census figures.

Mr. BATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. THOMAS. That is an estimate of 938,476.

With the authorized strength we now have of 1,739 men, and figured on the basis of estimated population, we are at 1.6 plus per 1,000 population, and asking for 111 additional men in this budget will bring the Department to a total of 1,850, or 1.9 plus policemen per 1,000 population, as the population now stands estimated.

In accordance with this formula, we should have 2,350 police in order to reach the 2.5 ratio per 1,000 population, or in other words 500 more, including the 111 in the 1948 budget, to bring us to that

2.5 ratio.

It is my understanding that the Commissioners have a plan to step this up over what is known as a 6-year plan, and we will gradually get a few men each year during this period through the graciousness of Congress, until we reach that point mentioned above, and we hope one of these days we will.

Mr. BATES. Chief, what extraterritorial services, we will call them, are there that you give over and beyond what we might call the municipal needs of the District? I think Commissioner Young called

my attention this morning to many services which you render to the Federal Government.

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. In protection of embassies, and all of that sort of thing which, from the standpoint of municipal activity, is over and above the normal needs.

Mr. THOMAS. Surely.

Mr. BATES. Just what are those services?

Mг. THOMAS. These figures are more or less interesting.

Mr. BATES. What do they embrace?

Mr. THOMAS. Constitution Hall detail, for instance. 873 hours 50 minutes in the 1945-46 fiscal year. 252 men used.

Mr. BATES. What did it cost?

Mr. THOMAS. The cost basis I do not have.

Mr. BATES. That is for Constitution Hall, I mean.

Mr. THOMAS. I have that broken down here as to costs in 1942 and 1941. That is broken down on a cost basis of $9.24 per day, or $4,869 for Constitution Hall.

Then we have the Presidential details.

Mr. BATES. Wait a minute. Constitution Hall, is that used by a private agency? Is it commercialized in any way, or admission fees charged?

Mr. THOMAS. Well, there are in some instances, I believe, but I am Tot absolutely in a position to tell you clearly on that. That is, whether or not there are admission fees and so forth, I could not say. Police service is more or less quasi-municipal.

Commissioner YOUNG. Mr. Chairman, may I explain?

Mr. BATES. Yes, sir.

Commissioner YOUNG. Constitution Hall is where frequently the President, or the President's family goes, and the Cabinets, and the Eplomats, and it is a little different from the ordinary theater. They do ordinarily charge, I think. And I think they pay a tax.

Mr. BATES. Where do they have private assemblies by organizations, civic or otherwise, where they charge admission, and where do you nsist on charging the expense to the cost of policing?

Mr. THOMAS. We do not, sir. For instance, Griffith Stadium. That is the ball park. We figured the man hours and the cost was

$1.891.97 in 1942-43.

Mr. BATES. Is that outside the stadium or inside?

Mr. THOMAS. Outside.

Mr. BATES. Altogether outside?

Mr. THOMAS. Traffic control and so on, yes, sir. It is necessary they be maintained there in order to protect property and life and limb and so forth, and control traffic.

The Presidential details, in 1942-43, figured on a man-hour basis, amounted to $39,593.40.

Griffith Stadium, outside, $18,091.

Mr. BATES. You do not permit men to go inside the gates at Griffith Stadium at the expense of the District, do you?

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir. They have to go in to maintain order. In many instances, particularly on the opening days. For instance, on the 12th of April, which will be the opening day, we will possibly have 30 or 40 men inside.

Mr. BATES. Well, after all, it does seem that that is pretty much of a private enterprise.

Mr. THOMAS. It is, yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. And it ought to assume police expense.

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. I can well understand how the crowds on the street must be subject to police regulation.

Mr. THOMAS. That is part of our work.

Mr. BATES. But I do not believe that in the other communities they permit the police officers to be used inside the gates to do patrol work and to keep order among the crowd.

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. It is made a condition of the permit that adequate police be retained at the expense of the enterprise usually.

Mr. THOMAS. That is right. That is my impression.

Mr. BATES. Not only in that respect, but what about the football games which are highly commercialized here?

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. That is the professional games. Do the taxpayers of the District pay the cost of maintaining order inside the stadium and providing police protection?

Mr. THOMAS. When they are called they have to be there, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. BATES. It is not a question of being called. It is a question of whether or not they are permanently located there once your gates are opened.

Mr. THOMAS. They are.

Mr. BATES. How many of them?

Mr. THOMAS. On the footoball opening detail, we have had as many as 80 men all told, including traffic officers and other men outside and inside.

Mr. BATES. How many would be outside?

Mr. THOMAS. I would say at least 50 percent of them.

Mr. BATES. And 50 percent inside?

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. A private police force?

Mr. THOMAS. I might qualify this. They do ask those men who are off duty, on their day off, if they would like to volunteer. They get no pay, of course, and many of them do respond in full uniform and go in and handle it just to see the game. This service is a pass to get in.

Mr. BATES. We have no objection to a man giving his time and effort to see a game, if he wants to do some work for it. But I am inquiring about what the taxpayers are paying for it.

Mr. THOMAS. I should like to qualify my remarks concerning the force there, because I do not have the figures of the men actually detailed there by personal request.

Mr. BATES. What is your personal opinion as to the private enterprise and the commercial activities?

Do we provide police protection and fire protection inside the football and baseball games, and also the fighting arenas?

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. And all other sporting activities in the District?
Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. Do we provide free facilities inside the buildings?
Mr. THOMAS. In most instances, yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. Do you know whether that is done in any other city in the country?

Mr. THOMAS. It is not. It is my impression that this service is charged for in other cities.

Mr. BATES. Why is it not done here, Chief?

Mr. THOMAS. That is a question, of course.

Mr. BATES. It is a question for the Commissioners right here. I think we will let them carry the ball from now on on that question. Mr. DENT. I think in fairness to Constitution Hall that I should say that they pay a tax based on a formula for the number of times that Constitution Hall is used, and the money that is received.

Mr. BATES. Well, we will forget about Constitution Hall. That is used for civic purposes, and where the President and his family and the other dignitaries go, where we must provide protection over and above the usual protection.

Mr. DENT. They pay several thousand dollars a year. We have a regular formula and send them a bill every year.

Mr. THOMAS. I am not a fiscal-relations expert, and that is the tax angle that I had no knowledge of.

Mr. BATES. That is a field that we can develop some economies in, providing special police protection for private and commercial enterprises in the District.

Perhaps if we examine the income-tax returns coming from owners of these enterprises, we could probably determine pretty quickly that they can afford to pay. There is no justification for the taxpayers of this District paying the expenses of policing.

Mr. THOMAS. Quite naturally, Mr. Congressman, we are concerned with crime and disorders that might occur in large assemblies.

Mr. BATES. And you can make it a provision of the license that they provide such facilities as needed and pay for them themselves.

Mr. THOMAS. I understand the License Committee has worked out a program on that. Is that correct, Mr. Dent, in the way of a tax? Mr. DENT. I could not say. The ball park pays a license fee, and

real estate.

All of these items, I think, sir.

Mr. BATES. We will leave that question with the Commissioners. I think they can probably save the District a lot of money.

I will ask also if these theaters around the town, and I have my eyes pointed in a certain direction, whether or not they have police protection in all of the theaters in town, inside the buildings?

Mr. THOMAS. Not to my knowledge, no, sir.

Mr. BATES. Is there any reason why they should not have them inside the theater doors and do have them inside of the fight arenas? Mr. THOMAS. I see no reason unless they are charged for that service. Mr. BATES. Is there any more reason for that, in your opinion, Chief?

Mr. THOMAS. No, sir.

Mr. BATES. That is why we should police one and not the other?

Mr. THOMAS. No, sir.

Mr. BATES. In order to be fair, I think we ought to provide policemen for every theater in town inside the doors.

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. We take care of the traffic, anyway, outside.

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. Go ahead, Chief.

Mr. THOMAS. If I might digress, I believe that the Fire Department places men in the theaters; of course, this is necessary for fire protection. Men are maintained on detail.

Is that not correct, Chief Murphy?

Mr. MURPHY. That is correct.

Mr. BATES. In the city of New York, Mr. Klein, in all of these football and baseball games, does the city provide them free?

Mr. KLEIN. I will say that they provide them. I do not know whether they pay the police department, but there are policemen detailed inside Madison Square Garden and the Ball Park.

Mr. BATES. What is your thought as to who pays for them?

Mr. KLEIN. I do not know about the propriety of paying the police. I think that is a crime, to pay the policemen money. I would be glad to check, if you want me to, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. THOMAS. If I may clarify it there, I understand that in Philadelphia the men are detailed on their own days' off, and they are permitted to receive a certain amount for this day's work.

Mr. BATES. We have no objection to that at all, Chief.

Mr. THOMAS. We have no provision for that.

Mr. BATES. I think the objection would be from the taxpayers of this city, of putting the money up and being asked to provide police. and fire protection inside of a sporting arena wherever they may be, or any commercial activities, at the expense of the taxpayers of the

District.

Mr. THOMAS. I agree with you, within the bounds of that private property.

Mr. BATES. That is right.

Mr. THOMAS. That is only equitable.

Mr. BATES. Well, we will let the Commissioners work that out.
Mr. THOMAS. That could be a source of some more revenue.

Mr. BATES. We might be able to cut down a couple of hundred men in the Police Department.

We

Mr. THOMAS. I do not know whether we could cut that many. are here pleading for more and quite naturally I would not want to say we should cut.

Mr. BATES. What other services do the Metropolitan Police officers render that you do not find in other communities?

Mr. THOMAS. Well, frequently men are detailed with the dignitaries coming to Washington.

I recall a case two or three weeks ago that one detective sergeant. remained with a dignitary for some time.

That is when we have the visiting dignitaries across from the White House, where they are housed, when they come to town. There is a detail there, always provided, for their protection.

However, those are only outside, a uniform force, and of course, the plain clothesmen travel with those individuals during their stay